EP #1: Why PMMs aren't marketers? (Grand File)

Eric: I'm fucking so hype. Did you do countdown? Yeah.

Track 1: I thought it was

Eric: It didn't

Eric: Do we have it? Do we have it?

Track 1: It's recording now. it?

Track 1: didn't give, it didn't give us a co countdown too, soit's all good.

Eric: Alright, cool.

Track 1: but [00:00:00]

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:Love the vibes already.

Eric: Yeah, it's . We're starting off strong.  I just want to jump here and say, I've neverwatched a podcast episode in my life. Let me be clear. This would actually bethe first episode that I will ever watch. And,

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:But it's yours. That's amazing.

Eric: It takes a lot of effort that we're finally learning.Zach, I think you said it best, fastest two weeks scramble of our lives.

Track 1: YoU saying it, man? Tommy. Tommy. Tell me about it.

PMMs today want to feel like they belong

Eric: but it matters,right? Like we feel very passionate about thisand we all have our own individual reasons, but. I think I'm really gratefulthat you guys feel this type of way and we have others who feel this type ofway. And really,  I've been inlove with product marketing for about five years now, right?

Eric: Coming from amore traditional background in, in a Fortune 1000 manufacturing company.  Type deal. But,it was very clear to me early on that like customer success. , Are they gonnaknow when a new product comes out? What are they're supposed to communicate toeveryone? Being a customer success lead at that time, One of the biggest,think, things we used to scream about was "Why don't we know about theproducts?" and I now have nowmoved into software and I see that same chain happening SaaS is, you've got these revenue teams; and they have no idea what they are or how, or even how to communicate, let alonewhat to communicate.

Eric: But the actualart [00:01:00] of articulating The valueproposition from the problem to the new outcome. AndI think it's really important that the people in our shoes arecoming in with the high expectations that we all have, and they're not beinglet down once they get there and realizing that no one understands what theydo.

Eric: And

Gab: Really

Gab: openness of thisand everything already. I would say that I think first it was just, Hey, I lovethe vibe of those guys. Let's just chat. Let's see what's up and everything.then I just think it, it clicked, but it became almost like a vetting group, a littlebit like to vent on stuff or whatever. We're not so different. I'm not even inthe same country than you guys, but we're still living like similar challenges,similar misunderstanding similar situation where we feel like misfits. me, Ithink it's just that, my career in product marketing, I'm not someone withyears of experience in product marketing. Almost 10 in marketing though. But Ijust think that the more we're able to [00:02:00]Focus on the subject and just talk about it more, the more we're going to givevoices to people to ultimately communicate that as well.

Track 1: Yeah.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:second.

Track 1: For me, likeI think back to when I was in sales where if you're a salesperson, you're switching from different organizations,it's a lot easier to understand what needs to be done. You're given a phone,you're giving a quota, and you're like, "Hey, this is what we're trying todo", and. It seemed a lot more seamless than when you're joining a productmarketing organization.

Track 1: In the lastfew I've been at, it feels like every organization has a different way ofapproaching or seeing product marketing. And like you all said, it's startedoff as a frustration. Like a frustration of Hey, this is what I'm seeing in myday-to-day. I'm talking to a leader who says that, hey, like as a productmarketer, the data should not matter as much, which was crazy.

Track 1: Is thatbecause as marketers, . like salespeople, data really informs everything you doon a day to day. So when you hear that as a product marketer, it really made mefeel like it discounted the value. And it's harder to hear that from a leaderthat is supposed to be the advocate to your [00:03:00]function. this is really why I was like reallyexcited to have this conversation with you all.

Track 1: When we hadthose like talks on LinkedIn, it felt like a breath of fresh air because Ididn't feel like I was crazy. Across a differentthread. Like we all had a similar challenge and it's this is why we got this,like what's going on? How are other people like addressing this?

Learning from PMMs, a few steps ahead of you.

Track 1: And this iswhy like even with the speakers we got coming up, like these are people thathave been in our shoes who have done it before and look like they can teach ussomething, if they can teach me something likelook, I'm like, that's a free lesson that . A lot of people have topay to get, and we're getting that.

Track 1: We'regetting that upfront

Eric: Yeah. Zach I, Iloved where you took that 'cause I really didn't think about it until you, youmade the comment. But we've got, I think, eight absolute stunner superstars.I'm not trying to be a weirdo, but I'm gonna be a weirdo. They're legends tome, most of 'em. I like legit obsess over every word they say.

Eric: I try to digestit. I try to understand exactly what they know. Like

Gab: you pray

Eric: free.

Gab: as well.

Eric: Well, Yeah, no,I've got shrines at least three of them. With candles

Zach: gonna tell youI have, don't have a shrine of none of y'all,

Zach: None the hp Ino shrine of none of y'all.

Eric: not [00:04:00] yet because we're not getting asked onpodcasts yet. But I what you said is,

Eric: for

Eric: example, we'veall felt this way.

Eric: We're hereactively a venting mechanism originally. Okay. We don't necessarily know how toget out of that. And the people that we, we hope to attract to this alsoprobably don't know how to get on that. So if you look at our guest list, thoseeight folks on there, that's exactly why we brought them on the pod, is becausethey can help educate what we clearly don't know.

Eric: And I know,

Eric:  Particularly a few of them have almostmastered the art of strategy, alignment and enablement. And I think for us tobe able to extract that and put it out there and learn from it our own selvesis really the solutioning part of this podcast to me. And not just bitching andmoaning and finding a way to, to go against the grain.

Eric: It's not aboutthat. It's.

Zach: Yeah.

Eric: Let's let'sfigure out a way to, to ride here. So

Eric: love where

Eric: you took that,Zach.

Future of PMM and sense of belonging in your career today

Zach: No thanks. And one, one to add is that there are differentspecialties in marketing we've seen so far. So you got growth, you got socialmedia, you got email. But I think what's [00:05:00]like really surprised me in the past year is that there's different specialtiescoming up in product marketing that we're seeing today.

Zach: Like you saidhere we're looking at enablement, we're seeing competitive intel. We're seeingeven like unique niches as such as like solo, likea solo like product marketer. So . , doesthat require the same skills? Does it require different skills? What's, whatare challenges that each of those sub-functions are seeing that are preventingthem from doing the marketing strategic work or aligning to the broadermarketing efforts that that plague our day-to-Day as product marketing?

Zach: We all knowwhat we're talking about. We, we said it before, slide decks Hey, they'regreat, but that's not the sole job of a product marketer. What is, what areother things that we're saying? I'm not sure we're gonna figure that out in in this next conversation or in other conversations.

Gab: I, I think youare bringing up a good point and it's like a really good time to be a productmarketer because there's a lot more light on the role, but I think it's alsoreally good because

Zach: With theselayoffs. I don't know, man. I'm like I'm questioning my job right now.

Gab: [00:06:00] Yeah,

Zach: He said, quit.Quit lying. Quit lying, man. Oh boy. You see the number of layoffs? I don'tthink it's a good time. I think it's a good time to be in finance. Nobodylaying off anybody in finance.

Eric: We got

Eric: the.

Gab: I want, I wannabe a finance bro. Buyer, this man.

Zach: I'm like, I'mre questioning my career choice. I had a degree in finance. I'm like, oh, wegot the husky on the line now let's go.

Gab: Alright, let'sgo But, and I have a really good I have something really good to, talk aboutespecially those layoff. But first I want to say that I just think that it'sabout. We're at a situation, a crossroad where anything had happened. we justsaw what happened with, and again, comparing apple and oranges.

Gab: But we just sawwhat happened with Airbnb, with the fact that the PM role is getting mixed witha pm m role. this is happening at a really high level of really huge companythat [00:07:00] like a lot of flexibility canhappen. A lot of Defining by ourself or our own guardrails and what pmms wantto do. I think this is why we're having that conversation is because anythingcan happen. Anything goes here. Yes, people are getting fired from one side andthe other, but it's also time to have those conversations to define what do youlike to do as a pmm? if you are listening and you're like, Hey, I really hatedoing slide deck, you're not alone first, it's also the fact that. You'll beable to ideally get tips from us and from our experts to discover how you candefine more your role

Gab: and

Gab: more successfulat it as well.

Gab: You spend all ofyour time doing traditional marketing tasks that you don't like to do becausefor a handful of reasons, and you want to make sure you can prioritizestrategy, projects, and enablement.

Zach: Mm-Hmm? .

Gab: You

Gab: should have theoption to do so

Zach: Yeah.

Gab: hopefully.

Zach: And I thinkone, and [00:08:00] like the one challenge I'veseen like with being a product market I since 2020, is that it's hard to doyour job where it feels that every given meeting someone's gonna question theexpertise or the guidance that you're bringing forth. I think we said thisbefore where like we were laughing where

Zach: We said, we, Ithink we said this in multiple variations, but the one that really sticks outto me is that when Gabby post, he posted a few weeks back, it's like whenproduct marketers host a copy review with other stakeholders. Over in thatgiven minute, y'all like people become PhDs and in Oxford commas and commasplices and punctuation and word choice and syntax.

Zach: They say likethey know, they have deeper feelings about the words they see than their ownfeelings themselves, and I'm like, . And they all read Shakespeare. I'm like, [00:09:00] y'all. I'm like, if words had emotions,like you guys are like the Dr. Phil's of our next generation right here,because I don't know where y'all coming up with Ooh, this word makes me feelsome type of way.

Zach: I'm like, mean"there"?

Zach: But

Eric: and I wasactually, so I was taking a product launch cohort today, and hosted by, I thinkThree. Yeah, three of the guests actually all. So all three are around thecohort, and one of the biggest takeaways I heard today, which was just likeexactly relevant to this conversation, is when it comes to positioning andmessaging, right? There needs to be one person designated to being responsibleand one person to signing off on it.

Eric: Those thingsshould never be done by a committee. And I look at it very much like cooking. Ido not want my mom and my sister and my, sister-in-law in the kitchen with metrying to cook the steak that

Zach: no, nothing [00:10:00] against y'all. Eric. Just don't want y'allin that kitchen

Eric: No offense, butI make a really good steak and I've spent time learning how to prepare them theexact way that they should be eaten.

Messaging "committees" and fear of accountability

Zach: You

Zach: though, but Idon't think I've ever been and. me if this, if you guys have different, Ihaven't been in the org where there hasn't been one single approver ofmessaging. It's always been done by committee

Zach: and I'm curiouswhy that is.

Gab: People arescared of making bad decisions. That's why it's the same reason why. Thedecision maker is giving the hands to the champion to buy our software B two B.At least like people are trying to find the best solution they are strugglingwith because everyone talk about business innovation and a bunch of buzzwords.

Gab: That doesn'tmean anything. it's just Hey, it. Let's go back to the second call. Let's keepour software. And it's exactly the same that is happening with positioning andmessaging. It's just at that time it's okay, this will live in a drivesomewhere. And this will say that we're a "strategy" company, [00:11:00] but if we're not doing anything about it,because the committee wants to focus on stuff that are more short term insteadof long term, not getting any value of doing that exercise,

Zach: dunno.Messaging committees feel more like shark Tank these days. You just walk into aroom and just

Eric: and

Eric: I think too,it's what's really hard is how do you, let's just say you got three people, noteven make it five or 10, or.

Eric: What we're usedto dealing with. How do you put all those collective insights together to saythis is the proper message. too many

Eric: varying

Eric: opinions andmost of the time not enough customer insights in the rest of that committeethat's being involved.

Eric: But that's whywe're really there, right? Is to say, this is what the customer is feeling.This is how we should communicate that to them and here's the solution that weshould build so that you know that problem's no longer there for them.

Zach: But then how doyou get like a, a. Committee, let's, I'm using committee for instance, but howdo you get a committee aligned on the right customer? [00:12:00]

Zach: Because

Eric: yeah.

Track 1: I thinkeverybody has a different perspective and it makes sense. It's like when youare a product, you're like, Hey, I've talked to these people. If you are likecustomer like success, you're like, Hey, I've talked to these people, I'vetalked to these people, but how do you get people aligned on that definition inthat moment of what the customer is for the messaging you're writing for?

Gab: I don't have theanswer. But I would say that once you have well, I think it all goes back tofind the customer with kind of the biggest problem in array of everything elseyou can do. I. and then to convince, like the committee would be, Hey, can wetest this out with all of our resources for six months or something like that?

Zach: You ain't

Zach: gonna get sixmonths.

Zach: I'm like, inthis climate you can get laid off in two months.

Zach: you need sixmonths,

Eric: Yeah. Youbetter have a, you better have a patient supporting cast, that's for sure.

Zach: I

Zach: you got, I hopeyou got enough runway in that savings for eight because you gonna [00:13:00] be gone and two.

How to prioritze features and write the right messaging on them

Eric: I wanna hop inon here real quick. 'cause again, shameless plug here to the ready to launchcohort. Tamara actually ran a session on this exact topic last week, and I havenot become an expert over the last week to be able to really tell you guys thatanswer. But she has some great frameworks, which really start from what do thecustomers want, and then prioritizing exactly how bad they want that thingversus the other things.

Eric: aNd eventuallyyou're able to really come in there with a really good idea and I heard for thefirst time ever wasteland features from this session, and you have a four boxquadrant, and one of those quadrants is called wasteland. And let me ask you aquick question. You got, you guys been a part of some wa wasteland releases orwasteland and launches in your time where no

Track 1: Anythingthat has to, I think anything that has to do with premium customer support

Track 1: one.

Eric: [00:14:00] That's what I mean. So I think there aresome ways to, to align that. And hopefully they'll obviously be willing toshare it with us. But if you don't have someone in that position, then whatends up happening is you don't have a go-to-market brief, which directly saysthat exact thing. Here's our target person we're going for, here's how.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:They're having a problem. And I think also more importantly, and Gab, you'regonna eat this up I bet. How does that customer problem tie to our businessproblem? Do we need more revenue, do we, or do we need to avoid churn? Do wejust need to make sure our customers actually love our product? I think that isa big missing component when you talk about what features are there to make andwhat should we make and what's the most value, is that piece of what actuallydo our customers want in a granular level? How do those affect the businessoutcomes that we've set out for the next 12 months?

Zach: Yeah, a hundredpercent. And I'm seeing like even I'm seeing a lot of not weird stuffhappening, but I would [00:15:00] see lack ofmedications that a lot of companies are just jumping straight into. This is theICP and it's only based on like firm graphic, so

Track 1: The ICP willbe like, just a job. That's it. ,

Track 1: They're inthey're in software engineering. What are they doing? They're writing code.Anything else? No, that's it.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:And then it's about, okay. I think with the market, with that number of likesoftware engineers, let's reach 'em out because it's a lot more volume. And aswe know, if you're trying to sell to everyone, your hand ups selling to no one.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:One.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:Exactly. So you always have to keep the dialogue coming. I wanted to moveadrift a bit and just say today that one of our past client uh, just told methat he really saw a lot of value into interviewing, [00:16:00]like potential prospects for his startup. aNd he said that. If it was up tohim, he would've do it a lot earlier because usually we're coming up with thisproposal of, Hey, we should interview your customer. And it's almost Hey, weknow them best. We don't need to talk to them. An ego approach of at least ifyou ask me and he said I was wrong, it's not your fault, but I would recommendthat to a lot of startups. And I was like. I'm delighted. That's a fantasticanswer. So super happy that this vc know what he's talking about.

Eric: we need to puthim in a cloning machine and just make sure he's doing. VC funding for,everyone. 'cause that's, I've never heard, I'm never heard that. I'm still alittle bit of a youngin in the game, but still never heard of a VC coming inwith that type of perspective.

Eric: Yeah.

Eric: the

Track 1: I guesswe're not talk, maybe we're not talking to enough VCs up in here,

Eric: I would say atthe same time that he's,

Eric: ​[00:17:00] Rolodex

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:isn't quite

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:there

Track 1: I'm likehey, we need to stop talking to customers and start talking to more VCs.

​

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:he has a interim CEO position. He was able to play both hands and I think thisis what gave him that, that perspective. But I was really delighted because I'mused to finding to customer like, Hey, can we. Can we just chat with prospects?Can we just understand a bit more about the problem?

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:Can we just get that data? That is data and also just overall insight,qualitative insights of chatting with people like it's so important, gives somuch back and it's still something that a lot of pmms feel like broken recordand it doesn't always end up in you having a voice in that. So I'm curiousfolks. your take on that? What's your take on customer [00:18:00]prospects interviews or research at least?

Track 1: I think thatwas like

Eric: Other

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:than it's a must have. Is that what you're, you want more than that, right?ZAch, I'll let you jump in, but I've got

Eric: a very

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:specific take about this, so I'll let

Eric: you go.

Track 1: No, thanksmy man. I think back to this story when I was like, it was about like 20 17, 2018, I was like account executive at a ed tech like company, and we sold likegrammar adaptive tools. And I remember I was talking to a prospect, we werehaving a good conversation like going back to hey, should, customer should,like PMM, you talk to customers and prospects answer yes, because like when Iwas in sales, I felt like I just was, had a whole

Track 1: Like mentallibrary of customers of insights of this is why they did buy, this is why theydidn't buy. And what made it unique is that I could go into a conversation withproduct or I can talk to my colleagues and be like, Hey, is what's happening intheir market. And someone will be like how do you know that?

Track 1: And [00:19:00] I'm like, I asked them . It is because, asa salesperson it's and it's no different as APMM, it's that it's not only aboutthe product does matter, but like you wanna really get the context around theproduct. You want to figure out as to like, how does it live in their world?

Track 1: And how youdo that. You gotta understand hey, what do they want to achieve? Gab, what yousaid here earlier, what are the problems they're facing here? What are like thecompetitive alternatives that they're using to solve this problem? sometimesyou'd be surprised that the competitive alternatives that

Track 1: Our beingused are not like a competitor. It can sometimes be just pen and paper or theycan just be like, oh, I'm just using Excel spreadsheets. So like having thoseconversations like unlock opportunities that may not be, that it may not comeup if you lock yourself in like an eight hour meeting session with you, justyour internal team alone.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:A hundred percent. I think it's also like the, what you said is reallyimportant. There's the fact that you need to [00:20:00]speak with customers. But because companies and a lot of people are just, theyare imagining. Some kind of assumption and fake ideation of the customer. Theywant our product.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:Why are they not buying our product? Why do they are not searching? Or do theynot want a demo of our product? Because you never talk to them like maybeyou're trying to solve a problem that there's a lot of alternatives already andis not competitive enough. And again, this is just one example of many, but youcannot know what you don't know.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:So you need to speak to people. You need to be the expert of the market. Youneed to do all of that. As APMM and I. I think it's also just going back to thepoint of if marketers, digital marketers and all that have to learn be bettermaster of their craft, they will double down on specific channels andframeworks and a bunch of stuff, but sometimes we forget to go back to thefoundation. I think this is why, like [00:21:00]the role of PM evolved a little bit. Yeah, ultimately. Ultimately, I think thatcompanies just need to put their egos aside at least them that don't providethis opportunity of chatting with the market and get as much of information asyou can get those conversations, but also get a framework behind it.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:Create things. Don't just get started, but like Chatwood expert, there's areally great, I'm giving him a shout out, but there's a really great, uh, DIYguide by Ryan Paul Gibson who's doing customer investigation. This is his wholething. It's 125 bucks, and it's full of amazing tips on how to do actualcustomer interviews the right way. So I think, you have the experts, you havethe resources, you have a lot of stuff out there. You just need to be able toconvince that this is as important as it is.

Eric: gab, [00:22:00] I think you tied on to something perfectthere too, right? And what, it goes right back to the heart of ourconversation, right? Are we just marketers? I would argue that most of themarketers that I know um, don't do a lot of customer interviews. And I wouldalso say that. I have a long way to go to be a really good interviewer myself,but what we'd be asking now if you don't want to assign it to one part of theorganization, to do that side of it and bring all those insights in and to havethem all connected together, is you have people who probably aren't that goodat doing interviews.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:Or what you have also, and I've had this experience personally and secondhand,is you have these customer interviews and you're also trying to capture whatthey're saying at the same time,

Track 1: Yeah.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:And. What ends up happening is you're not getting all the insights jotted downor you're taking too long and the conversation seems a little weird.

Eric: So I [00:23:00] really find it important that's one of thethings that product marketing owns. It's like when we need to talk to themarket, I'm gonna talk to the market and that's it. We're gonna, we're gonnabuild these relationships, we're gonna understand them, and we're gonnaempathize. And then you need to have that relationship with product, right?

Eric: Who, and wewill have longer conversations about this, but as you're gaining those customerinsights, I find it very important. That you're not being the one who has tojot them down and map everything out while you're having good engagedconversation and just listening. And I think a lot of organizations they makethat mistake.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:A hundred percent.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:Zach, I wanna jump back to something unless you got something to say here.'cause it's been

Eric: gnawing at

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:my brain.

Track 1: Go for it.

Eric: So

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:earlier you talked about you might be questioning your job I know that'sprobably in a little gist,

Track 1: Yeah.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:but I think there's some, there's obviously some genuine truth

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:To that, right? I think as we explore these conversations [00:24:00] and we'll talk to more people like us andmore people who don't feel like us, um, something that I really feel stronglyabout is, I saw a statistic, and I'm gonna pull this out somewhere so you guysknow, not bullshitting, but about 30% of active pmms right now are looking tobe just like you two consultants.

And I feel like that'sthat's sad, right? That these pmms some experts feel like they have to go tothis route to sometimes feel like they have that, that say, right? Because whenyou're a consultant, there's a lot more weight on your your name than head ofpm m so to speak, a lot of times.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:And

Eric: what

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:I really hope that by the end of this, people who've saying that exact samething, Hey, questioning if I wanna be in product marketing. I, we get a wholebunch of people who are like, oh, that's what product marketing does. That'swhat I want to do.

Eric: And in fact,

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:just yesterday or two days ago, one of my old, an old colleague called me, heis, [00:25:00] he's a ae. You guys know what Icould make the joke about, but, uh,

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:Later.

Track 1: Alright,we'll save

Track 1: that for thebonus episode.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:in the back pocket, but he called me and he, and we had a kind of aphilosophical discussion and he is man, some of your stuff you're saying reallysitting home, I wish I,

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:I should become a product marketer and I hope we get more of that and less ofwhat you said, Zach of, man, I'm getting burnout and I need to find somethingelse to do

Eric: or somewhere

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:else to go.

Track 1: Yeah. Andlet me give us some more context on that too. 'cause it goes back to an articleyou actually just shared with us before the conversation and it's it's areflection of the market today. Is that right now not to call it, what do youcall it? What are people saying?

Track 1: Economicheadwinds. But right now it's that like the, there, it's like when you read onnews headlines and people say Hey, there's just so many jobs in the marketright now. But as a product marketer, like for some of the clients I've beenworking with in previous organizations I was at in the last six months is thatproduct marketers are [00:26:00] understaffedand overworked.

Track 1: And when youare putting in 60 hour work weeks and you're. Thinking back to your like, Hey,I wanna do the best work I can. I chose this job because one, I love the workit is, and two this seems like more of a stable career path of being within anorganization. This is why I'm here. But then the reality being like when you goon LinkedIn and people announcing like the surprise layoff or that, Hey, I justgot news of X.

Track 1: It sucks.When I got laid off with him, . The two months I started off a new role. Likeyou go into your new role and you're like, okay, I got six months to get myshit together. That was always, I felt like it was always the expectation, butnow more and more it feels like you're seeing people who are joiningorganizations and they're like, within six weeks or three months, they're like,Hey, we got let go.

Track 1: And nomatter how much you say, it's not about performance, mind. The mind is thehuman mind. You're gonna be doubting yourself, you're gonna be [00:27:00] questioning yourself. And I think that'swhere part of my answer comes from, is that why I question Hey, what doesproduct marketing look like?

Track 1: Because it'slike, how much can you do a role where you've, you don't feel valued in thecontributions you're bringing forth, but like when people are saying it's notyou, like, think about when you, when someone breaks up with you in arelationship, I'm like, oh, it's not you. Like I'm just, I'm going to gradschool and

Track 1: you don'twanna come.

Track 1: It. Ofcourse it's me. So if I went with you to grad school too, would we still betogether? Who? Perhaps. But you don't, you not you feel like you feel takingpart of that blame and that's another like a mental hurdle like, spiritualstruggle that you gotta work through.

Track 1: So like Iwas even talking to my wife like a, like sidebar. I was like, yeah, man. If I,I think I wanna take a career break at in the next year or so, or open up abar. I'm thinking I'm having an early thirties like crisis right now and Iwanna keep my options open. I [00:28:00] loveproduct marketing too, but like

Track 1: A lot of thestress, I think many of us as pmms have been seeing in the market this pastyear is that we wish we could do without

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:A hundred percent. I love what you said and just before saying it I would loveto get wasted at your bar if you pin it. Just a quick side

Track 1: Hey, a

Track 1: PMM drink,pmms drink free.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:Oh, I was gonna say I was getting first rounds, but it sounds like Zach'sgetting all the rounds. Let's go.

Track 1: But just,y'all just don't put me outta work though.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:No,

Eric: No. Definitely.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:we, gotta, still stay in our career path though, Zach.

Eric: if We wannadive

Eric: that. we knowthat bar

Eric: is

Eric: a

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:for free. So

Eric: we. We know

Eric: that bar is areally strong industry, especially with Covid, right?

Track 1: Oh yeah.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:A side

Eric: rock solid.

Track 1: It's adefensive industry.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:We'll pick up,

Eric: we'll

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:pick up APMM roll for a bar or brewery. There we go.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:Amazing. Amazing. I would say that you said, a lot of people [00:29:00] are like considering this career, and Ithink it's a part of it is also because it's, you're never doing the samething. It's always like tragic project, but those projects involve. Enablement,evolve, collaboration, evolve.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:You're always communicating, you're always pitching something. I think it's alot like this role is everything, is it? And is like nothing that you'reexpecting sometimes. It's always varies. I think it's a good thing, buthopefully we can help defining it. I just think that what's cool, especiallywith this discussion is we're all coming from different backgrounds

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:and we're all on the same wavelength. Which is amazing because like usuallypeople love to categorize people, put them into buckets, and I feel that evenif my background is from marketing Zach or from sales, and Eric, you're fromcustomer success, we're all in the same understanding of, okay, so this is therole, this is what is requiring me in my background to do my best job.

​[00:30:00]

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:And I think it's a really cool thing. But at the same time, like. I feel likepmms are getting too much on their plates because

Track 1: Oh, a wholelot.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:with them and it's falling a bit on their if I'm talking to someone who doesn'tknow product marketing, let's say I'm talking to my mom, I would say, gab,what's your, she was a gab. What's your role? And I'll say, basically, managingdifferent marketing projects together. On a very high level, that's it. Whenyou're in an internal company, they're like you are handling those marketingprojects, so let's take more marketing projects that are now project, that arestrategies, tactics, the whole roadmap, and let's put that in your court. Sothen you just have way too much work you're unable to prioritize, which lead toburnout because not the right guardrails have been set up at the first time.

Track 1: Yeah, Ithink burnout and pmms a real [00:31:00] thing.

Eric: And I'll jumpon that after providing a real life example, right? So we've got a productlaunching Launch Monday. Or released Monday, they hit the button. It's outthere. It's live baby. It's working. And long story short, it drasticallychanges our positioning from supply spend. So just the things that you can buythrough our app versus everything that you can buy from anywhere else. It's adrastic change, but because of what you said, right? I have so much on my platefrom How are we gonna generate leads to, what is the definition of an MQL toplanning events, to putting things up on social, right? I gotta be honest, thebandwidth is just not actually capable to spend 80% of my time figuring out howare we going to launch this product And what's happened now, as you can see,we're three days in. We definitely haven't communicated it well to any existingcustomers. [00:32:00] We're launching a newwebsite, so now I gotta figure out how we're gonna, bring that whole thing in.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:And, gab, I think you nailed it. There's just not enough time, not enoughresources, not enough mental capacity to be able to put all of those thingstogether in a way that, um, I think we all have high expectations of executingand I think it's really a bigger conversation.

Eric: we gotta have.But what I relate this to, and I've been, when I talk to founders, they say thesame thing. They have founder burnout, right? That's a real thing. And quitefrankly, someone needs to start like a group so they can all vent. But I thinkhave

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:Or

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:not ponders the next podcast coming up.

Eric: we've got.

Track 1: Hey, We're,hey. We got the horizontal positioning over here. Next is gonna be like, we'renot salespeople.

Eric: So where I'mgetting at is I think we've talked about this, but I agree with the notion thatwe are most suited to sit right underneath the CEO. So [00:33:00]how wild is it that, of course, pmms got their own burnout and CEOs gotburnout? Because I do believe the stresses and the pressures and the amount of.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:Coordination it takes to be in both of those roles are different degrees,right? You're gonna turn the notch up and you're gonna have different versions,but I find them very similar and I'm sure the burnout ends up feeling very muchsimilar as well.

Track 1: So like howdo we move forward from here?

Eric: Heck yeah. Weget our eight pmms on here to help everyone else figure it out.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:Exactly, A hundred percent.

Track 1: open up

Track 1: more headcount.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:I, I think maybe we can with the off and everything happening, I. What wouldyou folks do if you were APMM hot of job right now to differentiate yourselffrom the noise when looking for a new job? I think that could be a good partingTodd, but on my end, what I would do is [00:34:00]I would just focus on my skillset, which is messaging. So I would just go ontheir website of companies that I really feel inclined to going and I wouldtake the time to actually research it. Again, tweak like my resume and stuff.But I would really go with, by the way, like cold outreach, the. Cold email. Iknow how much every club is, but I would just outreach like the the person thatis in the hiring committee or whatever, add them on LinkedIn and then like,when applying, giving out, this is the messaging that I think you folks shoulduse for X, y, Z.

Track 1: Yeah.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:I think it, it might be useful for some of y'all.

Track 1: I would saydon't wait until you get the pink slip to start building

Track 1: network.

Track 1: If you canset a goal of like just posting even once a week, twice a week, remind peoplethat you exist. [00:35:00] And because goingback to your question, gab, is that if I got laid off again, I would . I wouldsay go and create your own LLC.

Track 1: This was areally good advice that my good friend Crystal Crouch like gave to me, likewhen that happened to me because I didn't know what to do. Like you go into jobpostings today and over a thousand applicants for every job posted. It's just,it feels harder, more and more to stand out above the fold.

Track 1: I've seen sofar is that if you create your LLC as a consultant, like you said, if you focuson a specific niche or if you are like, Hey, I don't even know where to focuson, like position yourself as a fractional product marketer, tap into yournetwork and say, Hey, like I know there's no budget.

Track 1: There maynot be budget right now for a full head. But do you have any project-basedfractional work that you need help on? Let's chat, let's discuss and get thatball rolling. I think it's a lot easier now to go that route. And I've beenseeing some things on LinkedIn where it's like going in like [00:36:00] a or the contract to hire route.

Zach: like a paidtrial for like talent. Like you get feel, you gotta feel out the organization.They get to feel you out. If it doesn't work out, you go off to a differentopportunity. If it does work out, you have the choice to decide, do you want tostay there longer or become a full-time, or you want to maintain that currentrelationship you have.

Track 1: So thatwould be my 2 cents.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:That's amazing and I just want to add, move away from hourly rates as fast aspossible.

Track 1: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:hours, yeah, the more hours you're putting

Track 1: Oh, preach.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:are hours outside that you're taking away from your family and friends,

Eric: Oh man.

Track 1: Yeah.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:out from that as soon as possible.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:I got

Eric: a son coming

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:in March. I can't be doing that,

Track 1: this songonna got that son Got you on hourly rate. You don't, I'm like.

Eric: That, thatdaycare, that's Cumins gonna got me on an island, man, like, goodness gracious.But um, I would say I got three pieces of advice. One thing that I got back inmy last round [00:37:00] of if finding a jobwas I had a very unique style to my resume. It did not look like. Anything elsecoming through, like visually you knew that was not a normal resume?

Eric: Sometimes bad,I'm sure, but often I got pretty good compliments. So see what you can dothere. In terms of just making visually it stand out. Second thing we touchedon it is I think product marketers are very bad at positioning themselves. Now,maybe that's just me, but that's, I

Track 1: I've heardthat. I've heard that through the grapevine.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:I've heard that, I saw that while I was interviewing, right? I was like, holycrap. Do the work that you'd normally do for a product on yourself and boom,jobs, job offers were shortly thereafter.

Track 1: Yeah.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:And then the third thing is go get lavender ai. So you can write that coldemail that Gab was talking about and make sure you get graded at least in 95before you hit send.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:Yeah. Yeah.

squadcaster-g521_1_11-16-2023_175001:Yeah.

Track 1: 90, 95 ordon't send.

Eric: But no,seriously. I that's I think a good way to end that. 'cause we all want peopleto find more jobs, get more opportunities, and [00:38:00]feel like they found the right one for them.

Track 1: Hell yeah. Ilove it. Yo, I just realized I'm three minutes late for a client call. ,

Track 1: I gotta go.

eric-holland_1_11-16-2023_175002:to you. I was gonna say something to you, but All right. This was dope,

Track 1: I looked I,I looked to the client.

​

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