PMMs should have ownership of the homepage and message testing should be their #1 priority. Making sure it resonates with their target audience. This is what Peep Laja, CEO and Founder of Wynter, believes in. Peep has been an entrepreneur since 2007 and has kept telling the same narrative for 3+ years at Wynter - your website messaging should be tested. As our secret guest for Season 1, we’re talking about:
If you want to get better at messaging and know how to navigate internal discussions with opinionated colleagues about it, then prepare yourself for this special episode with Peep!
Message testing in B2B w/ Peep Laja (special guest)
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Track 1: Heyeveryone. Welcome to another episode of We're Not Marketers. We have a specialguest with us here today. We got Peep Laja, CEO of Wynter you all are familiarwith him, you may have seen him pop up on your LinkedIn feed, or he may haveanswered a question on Intercom related to CS support. He's gonna give us adeep dive here around.
Track 1: B2BMessaging testing, getting to know your audience more. And hes us here to kickit up. Kick it with the three misfits here. So to start it off, my name is ZachRoberts here, sales waterboy I'll pass it over here to Gab.
gab_1_02-02-2024_133809:Gab Bujold sales deck intern. I just do sales deck until I die
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:and I am [00:01:00] Eric Holland, the one andonly Frankenmarketer. Zach, pass it back to you for a quick intro of ourspecial guest.
Track 1: Perfect tous. Peep we rolled off the red carpet for you here, but we know we may not bedoing you justice here. What else would you like to add to your intro here?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:I think you pretty much covered it. I'm a, I'm an entrepreneur, so have threecompanies. I've been an entrepreneur since 2007. Almost 20 years now.
gab_1_02-02-2024_133809:Awesome. Congrats.
Track 1: I'm like,and like we said before the conversation, happy three year for Wynter. I knowyou started back in January, 2021. We're gonna talk more about that. But asPeep. This show is called, we're Not Marketers, and every guest that walks thisvirtual stage, we always got one question for them specific to within B2Bproduct marketing.
Track 1: I'm gonnapass it off here to Gab here, and he's gonna take it away.
gab_1_02-02-2024_133809:Thank you.
gab_1_02-02-2024_133809:Peep Are product marketers actually [00:02:00]marketers? Why or why not?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Yes they are. 'cause the point of product marketing, one of the key points isto make people want whatever you're selling. So that's marketing.
gab_1_02-02-2024_133809:That's the show folks.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:right. There's the answer. No one needs to listen any farther, but that's good.I would say to give you our perspective, since this is the first time all of usmeeting you and likewise you meeting us. We've taken the opinion that marketingis typically now all about leads, right?
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:There's where a lot of the KPIs end up falling, and the three product marketingmisfits on this call believe that primarily it should be tied to revenue andthe product marketing side of things. We feel like that. Is why we've namedourselves, we're not marketers. And we believe that delineation is a lot of thereasons why. There's a lot of that disconnect that you see in a lot of startupsnowadays. Give you some context there [00:03:00]and if you have any thoughts on that, we'd love to hear it, but I think youmade it pretty clear
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Well, sure. I think even marketing is not even measuring leads anymore. 'causeMQL is like, so 2012 any, everything that matters is just pipeline. Andconverted dollars.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:my opinion that is maybe not very mainstream is the product marketing shouldown the website and thus should own the conversion rate.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:So if you look at, any study done on how companies buy B2B products and I'm,B2B space and I think the recent buyer journey report by Gartner, what is thenumber one thing that influenced you when. Doing vendor selection. It'swebsite. Website is number one. And who owns the website? It varies. It shouldbe owned by product marketing in a big company. In a small company it's theCEO. 'cause the CEO is the head of product marketing at a small company. Uh,but so yeah, so I think product marketing has to be responsible for revenue, [00:04:00] for pipeline, for all those things.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:Lemme
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:I wanna pick into this a little bit. So I think you, you lined out who youbelieve should be responsible. I know you work with a lot of differentcompanies and do a lot of different things. I tend to find, and I've only beenin this for a few years, but even. When we looked at when I was working at aFortune 1000 manufacturing company, it seemed a website to be a very much acommittee type of situation. And everyone wants to get their hand in the pot.So what is your thoughts on that approach, and if you know how you canpotentially move it away from that into a product marketing or CEO -led spacefor the website?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Yeah, committee, absolutely. Everybody wants a piece of the pie and the biggerthe and more complex organization to, the more political it is. So totally getit. Probably unavoidable also to an extent, and a small company, I. It's niceyou have dictatorship. The CEO says how it is, and that's how it is [00:05:00] as if you're Salesforce there's moredemocracy now which is sad for me, but I'm still running my small businesseswhere dictatorship prevails and it's the good times. But even if there arecommittees and, all that stuff. Somebody's gotta be responsible. Who's gonnaget fired if the results are shit, or who's gonna get promoted if it's we'rekilling it. Somebody, like a lot of the website discussions should really alsocome down to what's making money. I think a lot of arguing over what goes onthe website, especially the homepage. Sales wants to say this, and marketingwants to say that, and CEO believes that we should say that a lot of thesearguments happen because, obviously there's lack of consensus because we don'tknow what works if there would be. In a dream world, there's data on whatactually works what contributes to us making more money and converting morecustomers and whatnot. And then most everybody's a rational actor. If we knowwhat works [00:06:00] that goes on the website,there's no. No arguments anymore. It's solved. What was it, the CE of Netscapewho said, if we have data, let's look at the data.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:If we don't have if we, all we have is opinions, we'll go with mine. That theCEO o that's still the case. Everybody wants to make more money. And if we havedata on what makes money so essentially the solution to lack of consensus isdata. Now messaging is the last thing in the whole internet that is not beingmeasured every, we can measure every ad, click every scroll on the website.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:We know how much they click this button versus that button, but message thewords on the website. Are they working? And and the information hierarchy. Whatis the order of the content blocks? Are we measuring that? And all of this ismeasurable. It's just that most companies today are still not. measuring it.Um, also 10 years ago, usability studies were like rare. Very few companies ranuser did [00:07:00] user tests on theirwebsite. Today, most companies do this. So I think the same goes for messagetesting and other stuff where, right now it's like the wild West days.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:And if you invite me back in 2034. It's of course we do message. Of course weknow what works. Or maybe I'm just naive.
Track 1: Oh, so Peep,a follow up question to that.
Track 1: You saidthat CEOs are like product marketers. Many CEOs, especially at this earlystartup phase, may not consider themselves as product marketers. They'resaying, Hey, I'm the first salesperson. I am curious to get your take on this.Is that if CEOs are calling themselves like the first sales person.
Track 1: They're onevery sales call talking to customers. And like you said here earlier, liketheir say goes what prompts your organization to exist? Because if I'm a CEO,I'm a salesperson. I'm talking to customers, I'm getting the [00:08:00] insights. I know what their POV is. I'mqualified to speak to that.
Track 1: Why would Ihire a Wynter to tell me what I already know?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:The Wynter does not tell you what to say. Wynter will only tell you. How it'sworking or it's not a binary one or zero. It's a what about your picturenarrative with whatever is working and clicking and what remains unclear? Whatcreates confusion? What's actually hurts? The sales process. So it's adifferent thing.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:We're not telling you say this the CEO in a small business is also the founder.In, in a large organization it might change. Typically still the founder, evenlike Mark Zuckerberg is still there and all that stuff. So a founder starts thebusiness. Because they have some sort of an insight to the market. They'veprobably worked in the same space for, years and years before. They've talkedto a lot of people before they launched the business if they, if they're a, uh,they probably a red lean startup and they knew they had to interview like 40people and they come in with the [00:09:00]most knowledge about the customer and the market and the opportunity. And ifthe company is making enough money that they can hire people, there's money forthat means some shit's working. So he's right. It's working. That's the problemwe're solving. Somebody's paying for it. So already, that's why the CEO is theproduct marketer. You say sales, but marketing is sales at scale. So sales isjust one-on-one, and marketing is nowhere in one to many. Same idea. And the c,the CEO is the CMO and the CEO is also the chief product officer for a long asswhile and I mean if you follow Jason Lempkin who's talking about big enterpriselevel, it's still the case. If you have thousand employees, the CEO is stillthe CMO and CPO and everybody else better get in line.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:Well, that I'm curious because you tailed on this, and I've actuallyexperienced this where I've brought Wynter to the forefront. I would like thisdata instead of me walking around with a blindfold and hoping this is, I pinthe tail on the [00:10:00] donkey. I'm socurious as why that is such a tough thing when you talk about any, like yousaid, any other part of the journey, you're like, where's the data behind it?
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:Where's the data behind it? But it seems to me like messaging does not get thatsame type of, I don't know, type of consideration when they think about databack decisions. So I'm curious to get your thoughts on why and definitely how.A like me can better position this, to.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Let's say that this is a sales call and I'm pitching you my product. But yourcams are off, and your mics are on mute. And here I am delivering my pitch. AllI can see is whether you later, sign my order form and buy my thing or not.That will be insanity. Nobody would do sales calls like this.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:It's a conversation. I'm gauging your, whether you're bored and I'm asking youquestion, trying to engage you, that's normal. But message. Messaging on awebsite is that, like cameras are off and they're on mute and you're justscreaming something, and somehow we think [00:11:00]that's normal. As soon as I bring this analogy to whoever during, usuallyduring a sales code where I'm pitching message testing, they're like, oh,obviously. Or another example is you're buying all this LinkedIn ads and Googleads and so on. Imagine those tool platforms would not tell you how many clicks.How many impressions cost per click, cost per action, all the, you had no data.You just, is how much you spend. It will be insanity. Nobody would do that yetsomehow. It's okay. That website, which is number one asset in the buyerjourney, number one, we're not measuring it. We're thinking, oh, maybe it's theLinkedIn now, it is not the fucking LinkedIn ads. Everything contributes.Obviously it's a complex system. And so the argument of why we need to measureit is actually everybody gets it. I think why it's not thought about is tworeasons. One, there was just no way to do message testing up until recently.Nobody was even talking about it on the internet until I came around. In, in [00:12:00] advertising there's a concept called copytesting that's been around for since the sixties. There are all these labs,like before you launch your Super Bowl ads. The commercials, these are tested,in front of hundreds and hundreds of people, and they have had, they had 35versions of the same ad. And this were all tested before they put it out there.In advertising world, this is an old concept. Um, so I'm just building on thatstuff. So there's one, it's a new idea in, in, in messages is a new idea. Andsecond is. Everybody is, most everybody is literate. We can write words, I canput a census together.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:I did it many times today already, and probably you as well. And so hence itseems easy. Any idiot can, say shit. So what's so special about it?
gab_1_02-02-2024_133809:I think you, you put it in a really beautiful way that you know, if we're onthe sales calls and you don't see me, and I cannot talk. How can you ultimatelyunderstand that I'm seeing value or [00:13:00]not?
gab_1_02-02-2024_133809:it is bringing me like to a question, just reach out three, three years atWynter. I'm wondering how are you seeing, like the understanding of peoplearound message testing? Are you seeing like that, uh, the market start tounderstand how. Crucial it is in order to validate that the message resonatewith their target market.
gab_1_02-02-2024_133809:Can you talk to us a little bit, how are you seeing this evolve over the courseof the last three years?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:It is definitely getting a lot of traction. So if you think about messagetesting as a category, Wynter is a, is in that ca category, a tool in thatcategory, but there are all these other. Let's call it vendors or players inthe market. There are, authors like April Dunford in her books.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Like she's talking about it and then, there's eh, Dave Gerhardt is tweetingabout it. So all it's like there's something in the water the zeitgeist. So I'mnot just the only sole guy in the desert yelling, oh, that's your messaging.There's a lot of voices and also there's increasing demand.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:'cause can see. People [00:14:00] who used tocall themselves copywriters are now they're messaging experts, like they'rerepositioning themselves and and so overall it's growing. Obviously. We'restill, Wynter is a very small company. We are a 3-year-old startup. We've beendoubling and tripling here over the last years, but we're still tiny.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Think about HubSpot, which is what's their revenue? Like billions, right? Theythey have 5% of the CRM market. 5%, and that's HubSpot. Everybody knowsHubSpot, so. Wynter and message testing and know market and buyers and it islike 0.0001% of the people who need it are u are using Wynter for messagetesting.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:That's not to say that you have to use Wynter necessarily, 'cause you can do itmanually. Like, and in and in B2C, there are other tools out there where youcan do this in consumer research and consumer businesses are at least 10 yearsahead of B2B. Always. [00:15:00] Yeah.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:So that
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:10 years ahead of everybody then in B2B. Is that what we're hearing?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:No.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:That's what I'm hearing.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:That's what I believe because I do agree that go without it, like again, anypiece of content that we put out, right? We expect to know how that'sperforming and I am excited for the day. Like you said, when everyone's yeah,we have to know. How our messaging is performing and get that data and be ableto say, heck yeah let's move forward with this instead of the king of the Hillmentality.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Yeah, I mean if you, if I play on your content marketing example here. So oldschool, 10 years ago we were writing blog posts. We published a blog post,spent weeks writing it and they were, oh, let's see, like how we do. And mainlywe were measuring SEL rankings and and maybe traffic. Now I. Content first goeson LinkedIn or Twitter, and we can see immediately in the same day whether itwas a dud or a [00:16:00] winner. And then ifit's a winner, people like it. It resonates with people. Now we can turn itinto a blog post 'cause we know they'll like it and we can stitch.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:And so it's a similar idea in content marketing. Social media is the way toquickly test if it's, it has legs and the cost of failure is. Yeah, almostnonexistent. If it goes nowhere, nobody saw it, so it's fine. So there's nodamage.
Track 1: Follow upquestion for you here Peep is that I'm a solo product marketer. I'm working ona website. How I do mess, like I wanna do the messaging testing. What should Ibe doing? What does that look like? Do I, am I making sure all the i's aredotted? Am I make making sure the T's are crossed? Am I going off of subjectivefeeling of I don't like this or I don't like that?
Track 1: Like whenyou say objective measures, like what should like a product marker be lookingat when they want to do their own messaging testing
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:right, right. you guys?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Yeah. So the way I think about it is [00:17:00]that there's, it's acau, there's cause and effect. The effect is they buy orthink, they sign up, they schedule a demo, like whatever the action is. Sothat's the effect. But what caused. People to, to sign up. So how, what kind ofmessaging creates the effect? And so if we work on the cause, we get moreeffect. And so when I was distilling down, okay, like which components ofmessaging predict the effect of signing up scheduling a demo? It basicallycomes down to four things. And out of those one is the most important thing. Sothe most important thing of all is value.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:And the way I define value is like, it answers the question, how badly do Iwant it? Like, I see an offer, there's, they describe a product, and I'm like,holy shit, sign me up. And that's the reaction you want or. Which is the most [00:18:00] common reaction to any B2B product is yetanother email marketing tool.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:I already have one man. So value is number one. And of course now it gets morecomplicated 'cause the way you describe value there, it needs to be done in acertain way. Number, so the other factors are clarity are you using language, Iunderstand and I enjoy reading short sentences, eighth grade, reading level, nobuzzwords.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:You spell it out, you know what it actually is and all that stuff. So clarity,very important. Then relevance. Do I understand that it's for me and do Iunderstand it solves my problems or helps me achieve the outcomes that I'malready trying to achieve? So relevance. And then finally, is thedifferentiation, differentiated value. 'cause in, let's say in the case ofemail marketing, I already have one, like why would I even pay attention? So,just, was it yesterday or today when Basecamp launched their new, uh, campfire,right? Is the pay once and on their website they say this replaces teams and [00:19:00] slack. So immediately they positionthemselves like, what does it replace?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:I know.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:And then they go all into why, what's the differentiated value? Basically it's99.9% cheaper than Slack, and you only pay once, and you get it and very, in avery quickly you get it. And then whether you care about that value or not,then of course depends on the person. That's positioning.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Find who cares a lot about your differentiated value, right? And so if you makeyour messaging more clear, more relevant, pimp up the value and make it clearhow you're different differentiated value, you're gonna get more sales and moresignups.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:And then the, how do I know subjectively, is this clear enough? Some of it canbe algorithmic, like clarity, for instance you guys know Hemingway app. SoHemingway can tell you what. Uh, readability. What's the readability levellike? This is like 12th grade or eighth grade, and you want to be eighth gradeor lower. And also like short long sentences.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Short sentences, it will tell you [00:20:00]like which sentences are hard to read, so you can optimize that objectively,make it easy to read, short sentences, all that stuff. But the rest is allabout perceptions and the perceptions. You as a writer, if you are writing thecopy, you cannot judge. At least not well. 'cause we love our darlings and allthat stuff.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:And so then you need to put it in front of that very people that you'reactually trying to influence, sell to and get their take. And their take is notobjective truth. It's a perception. Perception is reality to the perceiver. Sonow you're measuring perceptions.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Do you perceive it as different, do you perceive it as clear? Do you perceiveit as relevant? And like the value is also like on a, from, zero to 10, howmuch do you want it?
gab_1_02-02-2024_133809:But you said something really interesting because it's perception issubjective, but when you get a high volume of this is when you can findpatterns, is when you can understand we in the right track.
gab_1_02-02-2024_133809:And usually I think one of the best use case of Wynter is [00:21:00] when you are already talking to customers.
gab_1_02-02-2024_133809:When you already have that data point and like that and formal approach withpeople that you are. That are buying your product, that are interested withyour product, then you already have that source of information and you know thedirection you can take to validate it A little bit like the question that Zachasked earlier of it won't tell you this is what you should do, but it will helpyou have a lot more clarity than doing it manually or having to send outthousands of emails where it's not even on the same ground.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Right, exactly. 'cause what you will learn with message testing is like, forinstance, you will learn which parts are perceived as unclear. They don't getit. And then they will usually point out like, what about what do they not getafter reading? They read the whole thing and they still have this question andthat question, and the other thing, and, they're wondering about this and this,you will find out, where you're missing the mark.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:And then the message testing won't tell you what to say. Instead, you have touse your brain but it will tell you what's not working. So [00:22:00] it's an iterative process like anythingelse.
Track 1: Peep, I gota question for you earlier today. We were checking out the website, like yousaid, the website. This is the chief spot where you're gonna influence thecustomer. You, a few times you mess. You mentioned B2B messaging testing, andon the website it says point solution. But at the top you have platform.
Track 1: A lot of,like many CEOs, executive leaders. Especially in B2B want to sell a platform,they say sell the platform that's of value. So I'm curious from your point ofview, if I'm an enterprise leader, where do I start my messaging from? Do Isell the platform or do I sell the point solution? And if I do sell the pointsolution, how do I cascade up to getting people to buy a platform?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:And so the question is about the website or the sales process salesconversation.
Track 1: Like thesales [00:23:00] conversations, to give yousome context is that a lot of times when someone like teams are saying like,Hey, sell the platform, and from most prospects are like I don't even know whatthe platform does, or I don't want to buy the whole platform. I just wanna getthis X piece, don't oversell me. I just need x. I don't need the wholealphabet.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:So my take is that usually the prospect comes in with a particular problem sothat they wanna solve or a particular outcome they wanna achieve. So that'swhere you wanna start. And so if and. Are we talking about the homepage orsales conversation? Because a very, if it's sales conversation it's mucheasier.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:'cause then you can very much tailor it on the fly. Yes, we can do this, but bythe way, we also can do these other things for you and hopefully the platformis modular where I can just sell you this one thing and hope to expand overtime, on a website, your homepage does need to paint the full picture, [00:24:00] so it's more complicated. And in thatcase, the homepage should show, serve as the goal of the homepage is to getthem off the homepage down the funnel. So there's some sort of a self-selectionhappening. You guide them towards I want this, or I am this, or this is myproblem. There's some sort of a segmentation, self segmentation happening for alengthier response.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:April Dunford new book sales pitch. I think there's a whole chapter on what todo with a multi-product. Thank yeah.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:Now I've got I wanna dig into something with you, Peep. So you mentionedearlier you started this about three years ago and you were the old man in thedesert screaming. And I've personally benefited from the B2B messaging course,which you coded with Olivine So any of our listeners out there, shameless plug,if you have not taken that course, it's free. Go check it out. I wanna know,what are some of the other things that you've been doing to help elevate thatconversation? Make sure it is a topic that hopefully in a few [00:25:00] years from now, guys like us and galslike, our listeners can essentially make this a no-brainer conversation insteadof a huge five, five slide justification to leadership ongoing and actuallyinvesting in your messaging.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:You want to be in inside echo chambers where you say something and it bouncesoff the walls, and then other people start saying it, which is of course socialmedia. So LinkedIn, which of course is an echo chamber, and not everybody's onit, but the loudest people are on it, and usually the loudest people get it,get their way. And so I've really invested in, in, or organic LinkedIn and Itry to post daily. And if you do that over years many years it starts having aneffect. Like in, in the Wynter's case, we're measuring, the self-reportedattribution, how you hear about us when you sign up, 50%. Of Wynter signupscome [00:26:00] through my personal account,organic. So it's just, it just fucking works. And if you can have more peoplefrom your company be. Visible loud and and not just say, there's a, good way todo social and bad way. You need to have something interesting to say alsoconsistently, which is not easy. But, that's the cheapest way to do it. And ofcourse, if you have money, you can amplify thought leadership as a LinkedInworking great for me. Uh, and then, all kinds of events. I'm throwing my ownconferences. Plus virtual events are super easy and cheap to, to do, and we'vebeen doing them since we started virtual conferences.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:I haven't heard about the virtuals, but I needed to check that out. I am I'vedefinitely heard of your Spryng event coming up here in April, is that correct?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Yep. April 9-10 in Austin.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:All right. So Austin you got any inside stuff of what someone could expect? Andlet me preface with this question. Are tickets still available [00:27:00] as of February 2nd?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Yeah, tickets are still available. I've been. Actively presenting atconferences, for more than a decade. And I've been also throwing conferences ofmy own since 2009. So through this I have learned what actually make makes anevent good and it is not the food that is not the speakers.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:And now in retrospect, I look at photos of like conferences I was at like 2014where it's this. Theater style. There's like a theater and there's a speaker onthe stage and we're all sitting in chairs all day long watching one keynoteafter another. It seems like ridiculous. Like you don't need to travel forcontent. All of that shit's gonna be on YouTube later. And really what makesevent. Fun, memorable worth talking to. Inspirational is the fun. I had likepersonal emotion. Oh, this was fun. I had fun and conversations with otherpeople. Like I met this guy and then we talked about this thing and then I [00:28:00] learned that this company's killing it andthey're used doing this tactic.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:And I go and evangelize to my team. Oh, holy shit. What I have found. And sowith Spryng is like, how can I make that part the main thing? There arekeynotes and there are only 20 minutes. And there's two in a row. Um. And theonly reason I have keynotes is because I don't think you can sell tickets to aconference without keynotes. Maybe one day I'll figure out how to do that.There's just, let's hang out for three days. A thousand bucks. I don't know. Igotta work on my value prop there. But basically it's organized discussiongroups. So every attendee who comes, I'm gonna segment them by company size andjob title. So all product marketers who work at a B2B SaaS company. And have 50to 200 employees to sit at the same table. 'cause they have the similarproblems. And I don't just segment them by company size and type and job title,but also by common problems. I'll have them all fill out the survey beforecoming. I know who has which problems and then I'll [00:29:00]blackmail them later. Just kidding. And so I, so people with the same problemare sitting at the same table, people with the same goal. And so I curate this,and there's beer in hand and all you can drink and eat and social lubricant,it's super fun. It's at a brewery.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:I. Or is that looped into the fun category? Is that what you're, you loopedthat into that side of the budget?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:well food and drink are not why somebody ever chooses an event. But to make itgo smoothly, it's there. And if there's no, if there's absence of those things,people are unhappy.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:Gonna do some barbecue down there.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Not me personally, but we'll serve some,
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:all right, so Peep, again, go over the rules with you. It's pretty simple.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:We're gonna force you into a phone booth and you are gonna have to pick one oftwo options. to essentially use for your own messaging and if you were toadvise others to use so we call it the messaging torture chamber for a reason.They are intended to make you [00:30:00] eitherthrow up or feel like internally combusting. Um, so the only rule is you can'tplead the fifth and defer. All right, so the first one, supercharged orrevolutionary.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Good one. I'm gonna go with revolutionary here because then at least somepeople might have an idea. What I'm trying to communicate. Supercharge is liketoo vague. Would have no idea what that is. Maybe for cars in my work, like Ihaven't, yeah. But but if it's like accounting software, revolutionary might,might be a better word.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:Okay, cool. Next one. Best in class versus cutting edge.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Ooh, again, I'm gonna go with best in class. 'cause I think the the idea thatit's trying to convey is more clear versus the other one.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:Okay. How about. Let's go with leverage. [00:31:00]No, I don't like this one. We're gonna go with a different one. Innovativeversus groundbreaking.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Innovative. Same logic. Yeah. Groundbreaking. Like it was what it was likedigging the earth is like the new Elon Musk project digging tunnels.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:Alright. Agile versus lean.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Yeah, lean is overused 'cause wanna lose some weight and be real lean. Or is itlike the Lean manufacturing Toyota or Lean Startup? So maybe less, it's likemore vague and, but what was the other one? Agile.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:Yeah. Or lean. Yeah. Agile or lean.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Yeah I'd go with agile research.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:It's actually a thing.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:All right. This one is super painful for me personally. So empower versusenable.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:But enable sounds like a, actually a normal word. Empower is like moregrandiose. That's like the. What's the cool working space? WeWorks, humanconsciousness type of thing. But [00:32:00]enable, we enable you to do things. Sales enablement pretty normal. They'retrying to actively push buyer enablement.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:We'll see if that works out. Enable.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:All right. That's fair. I'm still struggling to actually find where I'm talkingand one of my friends and use the word enable. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonnatry, I'm gonna try to figure that one out.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:A bar, and then you enable bad behavior,
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:I guess you're right. I have been self-identified as an enabler before and notin a work environment. Next we'll do a few more of these and we'll get towrapping up. So increase ROI or maximize profits.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Oof. Dang, that's hard. These are both equally bad. I'm gonna go with theprofits and just because I have learned that anytime you use an abbreviation,there's a bunch of people who have what the fuck does that mean? So ROI, therewill be like 30% of the CROs who are like, I don't know what this [00:33:00] means,
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:but profits, everybody gets profits.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:All right. Boost sales or enhance revenue.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Say it again.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:Boost sales, or enhance revenue.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:I think boost sales is more conversational. The enhance, and I would not usethat in a conversation.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:All right. And we'll go with the last one here. versus streamlined processes.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:I hate streamlined, so it's
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:Oh yeah. You're my new favorite guy. I hate that word so much.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:streamlined.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Like,
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:seamless.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:I've seen it so many times, every time. I'm still not sure what they mean. Isit like, is it easy? I don't know.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:what about thoughts on Seamless before we go?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Seamless. Yeah, I guess that's also easy, right? I mean it's equally bad 'causeit's, you're not sure, like you've seen the word a thousand times. [00:34:00] You feel like you must know what it means,but you're not sure.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:I'd believe firmly, unless you're selling pants, there's no place for seamless.All right. So listen, thank you for we'll let you out of the torture chambernow. We really appreciate you stepping in there. We know how painful it is.
Track 1: Came outunscathed.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:you were a great sport about it.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:So yeah, PIP we spent, some time together.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:Wanted to wrap it up again. For anyone who hasn't taken the B2B messagingcourse, it's free. There's no reason to go get this justified from yourorganization. Take it is absolutely awesome and quite frankly, it made me abetter. PM m within about, I don't know, four days and about two hours on eachof those days.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:So please take it if you're interested and got a little of, a bit of a budgetand want to go to the, you said Austin, right? Or right. The Austin area inApril. Get tickets this Spryng. I'm
Track 1: April 9th.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:I've got a little baby boy on the way and I don't think. My better half isgonna [00:35:00] let me out of the jail cellthat early.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:So please take advantage of the leftover tickets and get there. There's somegreat thought leaders that are already going and it sounds like there's gonnabe some good food and beer as well.
Track 1: But you'renot going there for the food or beer. You're going there for the conversation.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:Oh yeah
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:definitely some good convo. And I think about five or eight of our guests thisseason are going so. Make sure those tickets get sold out. And, Peep let ouraudience know where can they find you? What other cool things maybe do you havecooking up in the kitchen that you're welcoming to share?
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:And yeah. Any other promotional things you want our guests to know?
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:And just gimme a follow on LinkedIn. I'm there every day and if I have anythingto share, we'll find out on LinkedIn.
eric_1_02-02-2024_133810:I can vouch that he has great takes. So cool. Thank you Pip, for coming alongand thank you for joining us on another episode of We're Not Marketers.
peep-laja_1_02-02-2024_123809:Thank you very very much. Peace out.
[00:36:00]