FINAL Version

[00:00:00]

Track 1: Yo, welcometo the final episode of we're not marketers. This is for the final time. You'rehearing from Zach Roberts, the sales water boy, passing it over to Eric.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah, the Frankenmarketer. This is the last time you get to hear this salty,silky voice on the pod. Gab, what's up, man?

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:This is also the last time that I'm going to do sales deck. So Gab Bujold salesdeck intern yeah.

Track 1: So we got aspecial episode for everybody here. From the past season, we came in prettyhigh.

Track 1: And that,but when we hear it, when you hear the episode, we're not marketers. Okay. Whydo we call it that? What do we call it? That we're trying to figure out ourproduct [00:01:00] markers are actuallymarkers. And in this conversation, we're going to get that answer today. We'regoing to show you the polls of what individuals have said across LinkedIn.

Track 1: You're goingto hear our take and better yet, even though we say we're not marketers, what alot of people don't know about this podcast is that a lot of product marketingwas used to build it. And we're going to take some time to give you a behindthe scenes look at what that look like, because whether or not you are a soloproduct marketer in B2B SaaS, or you are part of a product marketing team, whenyou think of product marketing.

Track 1: It does getlost in the vanity metrics and the elusive term of go to market. So let's seewhat those fundamentals look like and maybe does it resonate? Do you apply?Let's take it from there. Yo, we've got this question a few times, guys. Howdid we meet? Because, I think it was a LinkedIn, it was a LinkedIn message, apost, how did it happen?

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:So I can maybe shine a bit of light into [00:02:00]this, but from what I remember is Eric started like commenting my post and justwriting like boost and

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Really deep comments. I was leaving a

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:of depth.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:yeah, boost. I was like, okay, cool. I don't know what that word means, but I'mgoing to run with it.

Track 1: And this wasbefore AI generated comments, so you knew it was really him writing it.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah, it's

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:exactly. I think the timing was around like June, July maybe before that oflast year.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:So

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:June, July, 2023. And I don't know, I like, I saw Eric that you were doingposts on like kicks and stuff. And I just wrote to him and I said, Hey man, itwould be cool to chat. And we talk and it was a pretty productive chat.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:And I really felt like a really similar vibe, same age same kind of similarbackground and stuff like that. And then what we did is, I don't know if youremember Eric, but we did. Yeah. An actual messaging review together. When wewere looking into, I think I did. I don't remember the [00:03:00]solution I did. But you did user

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:evidence. A lot R3D vision, yeah. And we just went to, I wouldn't change thisand then we're just rambling on it. And I think that would be cool toincorporate an idea for I don't know, a segment of videos or whatever. But thenI also tried to connect with Zach. And Zach, I think you choked on me oncebecause you didn't see the meeting or whatever. I don't remember. Maybe we canchange the conversation, but it's fine. It's fine.

Track 1: I'm bad,sometimes I'm really bad at responding, y'all. Will

Track 1: look at amessage, and I'll be like, I'll respond to it later.

Track 1: And I might,

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:I haven't heard this story either. So gab you reached out to Zach and was like,you want to do a pod? And then he Heisman your ass. He's yo, I ain't got time

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:no,

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:I got time for you right

Track 1: it wasn'tlike that, it wasn't like that.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:no. Hey, there's a little I don't, it's not exactly like that. What happenedis. I was like, okay, so I chatted with PMM in a startup, really similarsituation than me that interact with my posts. And Zach has been reaching out afew times. Like I wrote a post and he said, I really like this.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:And it was hyper relevant to him because he just started a role as a founding [00:04:00] PMM Zach

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:in a startup early stage. So I was writing all of that stuff. We connected,

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:we chatted in the DMs and I said, let's meet, let's chat, let's have, let'sjust, network as we should. And then you choked me and then you said, sorry, I,I missed it.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Whatever. Can we redo it? I think the next day, like it was a really shortwindow of time. And we met and then like during the call, I remember I saidHey, I would like maybe to introduce you to a guy. I feel like we're verysimilar vibes, like the three of us. So let's have a chat and whatever.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:And I don't think I even talked about the pod. I just said,

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:I did whatever which was like the website or homepage messaging and review. Sothen we met, we just got laid off and we started like chatting about, I don'tknow what I want to do with you guys. I feel like it's just a bunch ofengagement on LinkedIn around the same subject. And yeah I

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:like to just say that product marketing because it sounds good and it's easy,but that's basically the The story about this,

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Oh. And also one other note [00:05:00] too. Sowhen he's Hey, you want to do this with this guy named Zach? I already knewZach. I like was

Track 1: Yeah, wealready knew each other we saw each

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:him when he was at Dropbox, right? I was a Dropbox competitor for the contentside. And I just. Saw this young lad killing it in the PMA world and said,follow. And so it was pretty cool to circle it back. And then obviously noteven being with either of those companies. And it was an easy, yeah, it was aneasy yes for me because like you said, Gab, we had a very similar point ofview, brought Zach in and it all made sense. And now we got the 3 PMMisfitshere.

Track 1: So like wedecided to podcast on product marketing, but then we called we decided to callit we're not marketers I'm like i'm curious like from a messaging positioningstandpoint. How come we just couldn't call it? We're product marketers thatbeen the same thing, right?

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:I think, yeah, it's a good point. I think if I remember correctly [00:06:00] the first idea was actually the name ofthe consultancy I started.

Track 1: Yes.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:it was press X to, to PMM or like something like that. And then it became pressX to market. And this is what I use, but from a product marketing standpoint,it was not relevant enough. So then we just started listing a bunch of namesand I think Eric, you wrote five in a row and you wrote we're not marketersbecause during those initial conversation where we're just thinking of it wasbecoming more like, um, a room where we're able to get her to just vent

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:on their jobs and challenges and stuff.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:And one of it was like, Eric, you said right now I'm doing the role of a headof marketers and I'm a PMM. Which doesn't make sense at all. And this kind ofsparked the idea of you, you should not do those tasks. And I was doing thesame as well. So we just decided to take that, that POV, like we're notmarketers.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:[00:07:00] And I think we also saw some trendof PMA that ask product marketers for their hot take. And one of them was,we're not actually marketers. So it was just a way of, Hey, let's test thisout. And the next step is the post as we know.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:yeah, And I

Track 1: that's onour website, that kicked it off, the post that started it all.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:yeah. And I think. I think too, it was like, we had all these strong feelingsand emotions and conversations we had, but to boil it down to those threewords, if we're not marketers, like that was the exercise. And I think like yousaid earlier, it was that POV and that's what influenced the title. And theneven the weird skeleton graphics that you see on every single thing, and Ithink

Track 1: But the skethe skeletons have nothing to do with marketing. I'm like, people were askingus about that. They're like, yo, why you got skulls by your names? On LinkedIn.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:dead, we're dead inside because we're not marketers, but everyone keeps [00:08:00] saying, give me leads and

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:if you're a PMM listening and you feel that you're dead inside as well, justput a skull next to your last name on LinkedIn,

Track 1: and don't,and do what we're not doing right now. Don't give any context of it. If peopleask you,

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Exactly. Yeah,

Track 1: I feel.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:exactly. This is a messaging one on one. Don't give any context and expectpeople to click on your stuff

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:I think it's why we

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:and

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:are going with

Track 1: And then putAI powered next to your name too.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:AI, yes, AI powered marketer,

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:then see your ROI 10X. And you'll lead explode and becoming a billion dollarcompany bigger than Apple because this is how a startup growth works. Yeah,

Track 1: There's somany of you put your job title on there. Just say AI powered

Track 1: and 10 XROI.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Hey, and you know what I really liked to, and we obviously took a chance onthis when we went this with this [00:09:00] POVand made this all about, we're not marketers and elevating, Okay. What thewhole conversation of a product marketer is. It was like, how do we are wegoing to resonate with anyone else?

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Does anyone else feel like this? Or is this just three weirdos in their ownsilo chatting on a pod? And I think,

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:I think it was a gutsy way to go and we've had enough conversations with otherproduct marketers, so I think we had enough of A gauge about it, but to just goout there with that conviction and see the response, right?

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:You see the results from a data perspective. But when you just look at even theconversations we've had on the side with people, I think it's, it's huge.That's why we did this. Like we didn't just do it to do it. We did it so peoplecould have those conversations, hopefully change the narrative. And I thinkwe've seen that after. Season of this, what

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:but I don't think it's a situation of just taking a leap [00:10:00] of faith. Yes, we took risks. We need riskin order to reap the rewards. But I think it's more around We were convinced ofthat point of view. So we did an echo chamber to see what was happening and wedid the post like four months ago now. Starting by product marketers on ourmarketers and I, we wrote, I know it has marketed in the title, but hear meout. And I explained the mix between the enablement and strategy. And we got alot of reaction on this 92 comments, 90 posts, 340, uh, like likes andreactions. This is still one of my biggest posts I did. But this just gave uslike put the pedal to the metal,

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:like you need to focus on this because you're not the only one having thatpoint of view and everyone can have a point of view. If it's not backed byanything, you don't know where you, what you're

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:doing. So we knew, okay, we have a validation. Let's go all in. Let's focus onthis. Let's push it.

Track 1: Let's take astep back about like point of view and like why that's [00:11:00]relevant right now. There's two things I want to say is that I remember I saw apost from Devin Reed a while back. We're talking about content, straighttragedy, relevant to point of view is that if your thought leadership point ofview is not bold enough.

Track 1: It's notsufficient to influence the conversation to change how people think and actabout a topic, but at the same time, it needs to be relatable enough that youraudience will understand. And then to give you an example behind that is that,like, when I was in sales, like, when it was, like, my first role, I was a BDRat LinkedIn and if anyone's been a BDR, you talk to BDR, you're trying to, grabsomeone's attention like a prospect's intention within a few seconds, eitheremail or call and you're like, I want to get your attention long enough to haveyou on the conversation to talk to you about a problem and a product because Iwant to hit quota. And that was like my crash course. I didn't know it backthen crash course into product marketing, [00:12:00]because as like a BDR, you're not going to sit there and say, Hey here's ourproduct, but you're going to sit there and say, it's like, Hey, like, if I wastalking to someone in healthcare and like relation to LinkedIn at the time,it's that, okay Hey, like, when's the last time you used LinkedIn to find yourlast candidate.

Track 1: And. Themeaning behind that is, is I'm, what I'm communicating implicitly in thatexample is that, okay you may be using a job, you may be using paperapplications, maybe going to job fairs, but. You can use LinkedIn to find yournext candidate and it's relatable because it's related to hiring, but it'sdifferent because I'm telling you at the time, 2014, 2015, that LinkedIn, asocial media platform that was only used mainly for networking and sharing jobupdates.

Track 1: This can bean avenue too, for you to find a candidate too. And that's why I think it wasreally compelling about this stuff. But Eric, the point you said here aroundlike. When we said we're not marketers, [00:13:00]it was a little bit of leap of faith, but then gab to your point here, it wasvery methodical because it was different from what other people were saying,going back to that positioning piece.

Track 1: But also itwas very relatable because the example being Eric, if you're a head ofmarketer, your roles and responsibilities have expanded, but not only toproduct marketing, but then you're talking, you're having leaders like, Hey,where are the leads? Hey build out this like one pager. It you lose the focusof product marketing and you figure, and then you get confused as to what isproduct marketing.

Track 1: You ask anyproduct marketer on LinkedIn, they'll have a general consensus, but differentpoint of views. And I think this was been unique about our podcast so far isthat those point of views, there's no right or wrong. It's based on theexperiences that we see so far.

Track 1: We've beentalking a lot about product marketing and earlier. We mentioned the skeletons.Skeletons have nothing to do with product market, or does it? [00:14:00] Because let's introduce a new variablebrand marketing. We're three guys on a podcast talking about product marketing.

Track 1: You haveskeletons on your podcast. Is this related to positioning? Is this related tobranding? I'm curious what you guys take on this.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:I think Gav, I want to hear from Gab because we did have completely twodifferent point of views coming out of this and Zach, I'm not even sure if Iknow what your, like full point of view is when we were all developing what arewe going to do other than just this name, right? We have its name, but how dowe stand out?

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:There's all these other podcasts. He's all these other. Things to do onLinkedIn, right? Cause that was going to be our main channel that we identifiedto, to get our message out.

Track 1: Yes.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:one, I think I'll be, I'll just be honest to everyone. I am a big fan of liquiddeath, regardless of what they do. They do no wrong to me. So I think there wassome major influence there. But as we talked, there's all this, [00:15:00] all these hurt feelings about how thingshave happened. Being a, as a product marketer layoffs, obviously being a bigone of them and a lack of understanding of the value we bring.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:So I naturally went to the, we all feel like we're all dead inside. And what'smore dead than a skeleton, right? So I think it was cool to be able to think.What's, how do we not just put our faces on every single episode? We don't evenhave our faces on anything. If you've noticed that it's quite different thananything else you see. And even now that I'm clue and working with a full onbrand team, which is super sick. The head of that actually mentioned that hehas never seen an AI generated podcast. So it completely looks different, itfeels different and even gave us an opportunity to make some Cool swag.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:out of it.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:You know what I mean? So

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:I thought it was just from that point of [00:16:00]view, clearly like we have to cut through the noise. So that was what Iproposed. So Gab, I want to hear your point of view.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah, exactly. And I mean If I remember correctly, we were like, okay, let's doa pod Zach. You started we know that you're a guy that works well with numberwhen you came up with a row of KPIs and never seen before, from the get go,like it's still an idea. And he's okay, so when he does man, I don't know ifyou can make listeners that number of reviews.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:And I was like, okay, all we know that we're going to measure success here. Butthen I think it was, we did order positioning. Are we against marketing? Are weagainst like founders ultimately, like bad founders or whatever. And I knowwe're still like understanding that we needed positioning, we needed messaging.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:So we did that first, we understood like a value prop, we understood how we'refeeling. And then later on was was the visual, if I remember. And my firstreaction was, this feels too much like Liquid Death. I don't like it. [00:17:00] But, we're a team, right? So it's allabout accepting ideas,

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:understanding.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Redaction. He hated it. He hated it.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:TLDR I hated

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:it

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:He was like, we need a new third podcast member, Zach.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:I didn't hate it, but I was like, we just talk about liquid debt and it feelslike liquid debt is launching a podcast. That was my kind of initial reaction,but then Zach loved it, Eric loved it. And I said, I'm not the best person totalk brand or design. I'm colorblind. I have very difficulty wearing clothesthat fits like my girlfriend, like once a week, she said. Are you seeing peopletoday or you're working from home because this doesn't fit at all? I'm like,yeah, but who cares? I'm just having calls. So yeah, I'm really not a goodsource. So I just decided to take the backseat and be, alright, I'm goingtrusting this because this is differentiated. I cannot say this looked likeeveryone else, it's just not my taste.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:But then like [00:18:00] immediately when wetook that route. I started loving it. I was like, Hey, I was wrong. A hundredpercent. I like this. People are digging it. That's why, your personal point ofview should not play that much of a role when you're in the team.

Track 1: And what'sreally cool. What both of you are saying so far is that I want to take a pageout of what. Jason said in our first conversation, when he explained like thefour principles of a product marketing within B2B SaaS, and this is nodifferent than how we built the podcast today is that first, like earlier, wewere talking a bit about our audience.

Track 1: We're like,okay, we want to talk to product marketers. Okay. If you look at a lot ofcompanies, if you ask us who's our target audience, they will say anyone whodoes X. And that's that's not specific enough. So we were like, okay, we wantto talk product marks. Let's get, how can we get a level deeper?

Track 1: Okay. Likewe all work in an industry within B2B SaaS. It was like, great. And that's whatEric and Eric said here earlier. Is that like. When you were at a startup or ifyou're like the first product marker, not too many people know what a productmarketer does. So you may be [00:19:00] gettingthese catch all ass.

Track 1: Whereas thisis different if you're like a salesperson, if you hire a salesperson, you havea pretty clear idea what a salesperson does. If you hire someone in finance,you have a clear idea about product marketing is like the odd duck in the roomwhere it's we don't know why you're here, but.

Track 1: Since youare here, you want to help us with this pitch deck. So knowing that feeling offeeling misunderstood, that really set the stage of our position in here. Thatnext piece of okay, like we are, we're a podcast for product marketers, as Gabsaid in the post earlier, we are podcasts for product marketers and B2B SaaSwho feel misunderstood of what they do.

Track 1: A lot of, ifyou check out a lot of the product marketing podcasts out there, like I canbet, we can bet that not many are talking about that conversation. So I wouldhave made it more unique. That's what layered in. When you look at theskeletons, when you see you're like, why the hell do they have skeletons?

Track 1: Why the hellare they talking about memes on their company page? Which we're going to, we'regoing to talk about in a few minutes, because there is a [00:20:00] method to our, there is a method to ourmadness. The last two pieces here, I'm going to go over really quick and we'lltalk in more detail, but it's like when we launched a podcast too.

Track 1: So when wedid launch it. Not, we didn't just put the podcast on LinkedIn and say, Hey,here's our podcast. We had teasers. We had we were having fun with it. And thenlastly, like the enablement piece is Hey, how did we get people? To listen tothe podcast, some podcasts out there will just launch the episode.

Track 1: Say, Hey, wehave a new episode, but going back to the conversation earlier as if you're asales rep, if you're in a, if you're like a BDR, that you can't sell a product.If you can't get the first person onto a call, so if you can't get the persononto the call, like, how can I grab your attention for 10 seconds?

Track 1: And that wasno different for our podcast. We took clips. We took memes. It's because if wecan get you interested in what you're seeing here. How can we get [00:21:00] you a little bit closer to the episode? Sothat, that was what I just wanted to share right there. I think it's justreally cool how we broke it down.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah. And I think one thing that we sh we don't want to underestimate is theresource management, right? Like good product marketer knows what they canallocate and what they just can't do when they're, we're trying to pull off alaunch. And I think we did a really nice job of being able to balance threelives. Before having to go to South America, before having a kid, before movingto San Diego. That was also a really cool, I think, use of our productmarketing skills there that should not be underlooked at this point. Reachingin the end of season one,

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:yeah.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:definitely. And I think it's also at first, I think something that I was scaredabout is how are we going to balance that with day jobs with family time andall of this. And was some and I [00:22:00] hateusing that word, but it was so I'll use a different word. It was so easy.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:It was so simple. I was about to say streamline, not seamless, but

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:I'm heartbroken.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:need a, I'll need a personal torture chamber on messaging

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:I am heartbroken. Oh, this was such a great Saturday.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:I feel like

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:I've

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:feel heart. I really do not even broken. There's just a spirit, but.

Track 1: A state ofthe art

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Hey, I will, I agree with you. I'm not gonna, I'm gonna make this two, two outof three misfits that said, I think this was easy and it was because everythingwe did was fun. Like we weren't trying to force all of these things that wedidn't like to do into our lives, right? It was like, okay. After hours, afterwork, while trying to find other work we were able to put all these thingstogether, make all this time, make all [00:23:00]this a little bit of noise. I wouldn't say all this, a little bit of noise, andI think provides some really good value. Just by having some fun. I agree. Itwas easy.

Track 1: Yeah. I'll,I'm just gonna add that really quick. I think it's three out of three, like itwas easy because two things. One, we were having fun and two, we had a veryclear focus. We knew that we couldn't do everything where we're three guys. Wedon't got VC funding. We don't have any,

Track 1: like no onethrowing us up.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Not yet.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:My

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:dad gave me a 20 bucks the next day, so I guess we can count it as a VC fundcompany.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:dad

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:gave you 20

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:bucks?

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah. I was like, oh, it'll be able to pay for, a part of

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yes, first month of Descript.

Track 1: Yeah, threeguys who have a deep like a descript squad cast subscription and that was itand So I think that was like and when you think a lot about like marketing themarket You don't get a lot of resources product marketing [00:24:00] best that's in the same sense. So And Gab,you mentioned earlier, like when we had the cover, we had KPIs behind thescenes.

Track 1: Yeah, we didhave KPIs. We did have, we were fit. We measure okay, like, how many uniquelisteners can we get? Like, how many downloads can we look at? What else can welook at? Can we look at ratings? Can we look at reviews? And. That gave us likea framework to know what we can do and what we can't do.

Track 1: We knew wecouldn't be on Twitter. We knew we couldn't be on TikTok. There is a TikTokpage, just don't look at it. But I think that was, we couldn't be everywhere.So that's why we chose LinkedIn. We chose LinkedIn because we know our audiencelives on LinkedIn. It's more relevant on LinkedIn.

Track 1: Hell, likeit's going to stand out. If you see three skeletons on LinkedIn. You're gonnado a double take. If you saw 3 Skeletons on Instagram, you'd probably call theFBI. But that's my take.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:three funds guys.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:It's not

Track 1: Yeah. [00:25:00] They're sitting

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:putting skulls or skeletons. It's also, they're doing activities. Like they'redoing bouldering. They are hiking up a mountain. They are

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:like

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Sitting

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:a campfire.

Track 1: a campfire!

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:around a campfire recalling. And, our boy Zach Messler, right? We all had alittle something in our glass on that one, it will

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:you mean Yerba Mate?

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:And that was also, and that's another thing that was also really fun, right?Like just to be able to use DALL-E to its. Max capabilities making skeletonart, but it was really fun.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:And I always got so excited as the the go to DALL-E guy to get something andsend it to you guys and just hear what do you think? What should we use? Howshould we do next week's visuals and. And I do think it was just, again, backto the easy comment, if you're thinking about doing a podcast, grab a few ofyour friends or people you've never even met before, who have a common [00:26:00] point of view and just. Just go ahead anddo it if you're thinking about it and do it, but make sure it's fun and we'repretty sure you'll succeed at this point.

Track 1: Yes. In aworld where Everyone's talking about content and using content as a way toengage your audiences. I think from what I've learned so far, having a podcastthis is like the second one I've worked on personally, is that it can be areally cool channel of getting new ideas, getting different content.

Track 1: Aside fromthe podcast yourself like I said, a few minutes ago. We're going to tell youwhy we're using memes. We're using memes that repurpose topics we discussed onthe podcast, or pain points that we knew our audiences resonated with. So like,why the hell was Dora the Explorer or Star Wars or what else did we use?

Track 1: I'm tryingto, I'm like, I'm getting lost.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:We did 12 days,

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:right?

Track 1: It's 12days, he has a teaser. Yes.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:and if you remember, do you guys remember what our topic was for the month ofDecember? Like it was a strict content. Every time that I [00:27:00] posted something in the month of December,it was related to one topic. Do you remember what it was?

Track 1: Was itChristmas? The holidays?

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:No.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:is it about AI?

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah, Zach. Yeah. Yeah. We all have this very common frustration, right? Beingbuilt around product marketing shouldn't be about leads. So although we didn'tcontinue beating the hammer in the January and the February, we spent thatfirst month just. Leads. Leads. Leads. Leads.

Track 1: It was avery broken record.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:And you saw, but you saw what was happening. You saw we kept seeing the growth.We kept seeing the growth. We got a nice little announcement. We got a bigboost of growth. And then, kept the memes going. Just switching up which topicit was.

Track 1: Yeah, it gotattention.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:if you're doing memes about lead gen, we have an episode where we just talkabout lead gen, same for sales and involvement and stuff like that, like it'sthose pains are becoming a way to laugh about it [00:28:00]and, ultimately showing you that we're digging this subject down later in thepod,

Track 1: And it was,I think, two things it did. It was that one, like I said, it grabbed attention.And second, it was a really similar to, Gab, what you said earlier with ourfirst post. It was a good gauge of us getting feedback. What people resonatedwith, because if we knew that if I put a post about Lion King.

Track 1: Andpositioned it from the relation around a founding product marketer who juststarted a role and seeing all these great elephant graveyard side of likelayoffs crappy messaging not knowing your job and you resonated with that. Itwas like, okay, we're on the right track. And I think that's a reason that's 1way that you could use humor and use content.

Track 1: To engageyour audience and learn a bit more about what they care about.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah, and I do want to, I do want to make a note just actually came to mind. Ithink there [00:29:00] was a slight advantageto that too, right? Not everyone can just come out with humor especially ifyou're not branded around that, right? If for some reason you're super seriousprobably,

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:which we are not.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:yeah, right?

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:There was a whole, there

Track 1: Imagine ifthe IRS dropped a meme on LinkedIn.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah yeah. So for example, I think some people loved it, some people didn't.But like we saw the one perfect example, president Biden drop a meme I with theeyes and it was like, wait a second, I'm confused right now. If he would've

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:done that every single day for the last five or six weeks. Now we've got, nowwe've got a branding situation, right? But if you just do that once it doesn'tland, but we have been consistently, on Saturdays and Sundays, we'll send ameme in the channel and say, guys, is this work? Like we, we make sure it'sconsistent. And I think because we have chosen to be that that shield for otherproduct marketers I'm not going to name any names, but you guys know a few [00:30:00] people at least who've messaged us. AndBen oh, that's good, but I don't want to like it because my boss

Track 1: because Idon't want my boss to see it.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Like we, we are taking that. And I'll even say it's nice to be able to slap onmy we're not marketers title on LinkedIn and make a comment and be like, Ohyeah, you don't know who it is,

Track 1: It could beone of those three.

Track 1: Or it couldbe an intern.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:like we've used humor, like you said, to be real, to have the conversationsthat people are struggling to have, but they will relate with, and I think Iwas doing on a consistent basis and being willing to have those conversationsinstead of just having them stuck in our heads is anxiety. It's given people anoutlet to at least say I'm not alone. And Hey, that was pretty funny,

Track 1: And that's agood point. You bring up Eric too, is that I think that's something like a lotof us miss in product marketing is the consistency. I think consistency is alot easier when you have a consistent message built on it. One challenge [00:31:00] I see in some of the roles I've done isthat where you'll be in the organization and they want to say everything aboutthe product.

Track 1: They want tosay, Oh, we do this and this, and we do this. And then what happens is that.For someone who's first learning about the product, they can make itoverwhelmed. Imagine going to a gym the first time and this, and you've neverworked out before. And someone comes in and said, Oh, try this bench press.

Track 1: Go throughthis deadlift. Oh, do these bar curls. That's you're going to be like, I don'tknow where to start. Give me a step by step. And I think that's what's reallycool about this podcast is that Eric, to your point we spent a month justtalking about Leet. Okay sounding like a broken record, intuitively, like, howis that being unique?

Track 1: But, like,when you think about, like, how many times will someone see that message? Noteveryone's going to see that message. Maybe people see it, they may see it overtime, but they'll start building a relationship over it. And I think that waswhat we started seeing with the growth we've seen in such a short amount oftime.

Track 1: Like we are,this is going to be our 15th episode, our final episode. A lot of podcasts andB2B [00:32:00] struggle to get past 10episodes. How come? Because they're finding that it's really hard to beconsistent. How do you come up with new topic ideas? Hey, like I'm not seeingthe numbers I haven't seen, so I'm going to quit, but you will see that with productmarketing, it's an investment.

Track 1: You're notgoing to see the results. Instant results over time. It's good. It has to be aconsistent effort. It's like working out You can't go to the gym one one dayand expect to come out looking arnold schwarzenegger from From like conano'brien come on now

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:It's also the fact that, and I love the way you're putting it, but we're justthree guys that feel the same pain than our audience, or at least felt it inthe past. And we all have our different sauces. We're all from differentbackgrounds too. So I feel like we're just able to, always bring differentpoint of views to it, but it's also everything with our guests is we're talkingto product marketing experts. And de facto this doesn't make us expert, butit's like, Oh this is really [00:33:00] good. Ilove when this guest said this because it's helping me solve a problem or it'shelping me understanding how they dealt with that situation that right now Ifeel like a misfit because I have all of those issues or challenges orproblems. And then our job basically is how can we take this. Make itentertaining, make it actionable, and basically help you feel less like amisfit and have more authority or being unignorable in your role, basically.

Track 1: Yes,

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:dude. And, I, I've just been, I think after going through what we're on. Aboutfour months ish of trying to put this all together. And Tamara actually talkedabout it in one of her episodes, but like finding what your superpowers are. Ithink we've done a very good job at leveraging those from a product marketingstandpoint. But there's also been some like other things like unique traitsthat we bring to the table that maybe not fit into the traditional box. And Ithink we've leveraged [00:34:00] those verywell. While also letting our, traditional shoot superpower shine as theyshould, and not putting blockers in the way of that.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah,

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:it's like the best way so we can what I love the most about this is I bring anidea V1, either you guys are like, this is good, but you should do thisinstead, or take that direction giving immediate and valuable feedback. Or it'sthis isn't good because of X, Y, Z. So we're able to just test a lot of stufftogether

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:just by it.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:What do you think of this? I like it. I don't like it. Sometimes like I don'thave the design. I voice my opinion, but I take a step back when I see that, Idon't know what I don't know. And. Ultimately, this is a question aboutdifferentiation, which is more important than colors or styles or whatever.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:It

Track 1: Yes. Yeah,we've had a lot of healthy debates. I'm like you guys if You think we havedebates on this podcast? Look at our WhatsApp group. It's just like us

Track 1: tossingideas out. [00:35:00] And I think that's what'sbeen so great working with y'all. It's like when you have fun doing what you'redoing what and with the people you're doing it with, it shows up in theconversations.

Track 1: It shows upin the branding. It shows up in the product. It's very easy to see whensomeone's not enjoying the work they do because

Track 1: The qualitytech tends to suffer.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:And it's organic, too. It doesn't feel like work. And it's always okay, so Ineed to work on the pod this week and on that time. Sometimes we takeinitiative and get crazy and Hey, I did this amount of editing in this amountof time. You're like, whoa, let's go, boy. But ultimately, this is, it's. It'sups and no, it's not even down. It's always been up. It's just that sometimeswe need to, we have difficult difficulty schedule, last time

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:or whatever. And I think that it's always we like coming back to it. We likeworking on it. We like growing as professionals because of it. So yeah reallyhappy of the journey

Track 1: Yes. So Ithink, Oh, go for

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:No, I just want to say it came to mind and for anyone who's out therelistening, who may have a little [00:36:00] bitof influence or may have a little budget or maybe building out a team, I thinkthis is a really good point of, the value of getting another product marketerin the room with your product marketer. And being able to have more than justtheir opinion because I've even seen it. Now. I've been at Klue for about amonth. And I've had a kind of a CI actually, person to even bounce things offof and to have that kind of different perspective. Coming from someone who getswhat you do who truly gets what you do and is not, a traditional marketer or isnot even product or is not the CEO I think is a really interesting thing toconsider if you do have some extra budget or you are, building out yourmarketing team and you need an extra head count and you're trying to figure outwho that. I think this is really good proof of what happens when you get morePMMs on there who have different skill sets and can compliment the entire go tomarket motion.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:All right, guys. So [00:37:00] big question.We've had 15 episodes, nine of them we've had guest hosts appear on. Who's yourfavorite guest episode of the season? And obviously, why?

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Do you want to start, Zach?

Track 1: Okay. I canthis one was quick for me thinking about it. first episode, Jason Oakley. Why Iwould say this too, is that yes, even though he said that product marketers aremarketers, I think the talking, like when he was breaking down kind of thefoundation of product marketing, I think that was like the first aha moment ofhow a lot of what we were doing was built on product marketing with buildingthis podcast.

Track 1: I think thechallenge, what We saw early on is this happens to everybody is that expertblindness is that when you're when you know, something intuitively, you don'tthink about the position and you don't think about messaging. You don't thinkabout enablement. It's because the stuff that you live and breathe as a productmarketer.

Track 1: So havingthat awareness gave me a lens to step back and be like, oh, okay, I'm seeingthis connection [00:38:00] and I will arguetowards the end. I'm like, I'm not sure if JC will agree with this or not, butI think we did sway his opinion a little bit towards the end of the episode ofproduct marketing market, but I'll allow you all to relisten to that episode andmaybe be the judge of that.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Love it. Yeah, Jason was, it was like the best first guest that we could havethought about. Really solid episode, really solid

Track 1: He gave uscredibility. Oh,

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Oaks, for sure.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Any Pokemon fans in the building? Okay. All right.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Me.

Track 1: so I'm righthere. It

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:that my free and I'll just say this for all of our other guesses. This was notan easy decision. I love everyone. Okay. My favorite guest of the season wasTamara. Because for a handful of [00:39:00]reasons, but. My eyes shined bright when she said that PMMs are not marketers.I was like, yes, finally, we have a product marketing leader and expert thatagree with us.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:So I'm not crazy. We're not crazy. It was a little bit of that kind ofvalidation moment, but it was also the fact that There was a lot of spicy takeslike PMMs would be terrible CMOs, but she has such an amazing background andwas really able to explain. This is the ideal reporting structure.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:This is how it worked at Unbounce. And also working with PMM Camp, she has anamazing perspective with working with a lot of product marketing leaders. Andyeah, she, her resources that she put out there are always amazing. Like thepersonal positioning course. It's awesome. The newsletter of PMM camp is reallygreat.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Her content is topical. So yeah I was really excited about that episode. And Ijust think that it's a really good course overall for audience to [00:40:00] understand that spicy take, but it's inwhere she's coming from and it's just circling back to PMMs. Always differentfrom, one organization, one organization to the other, basically.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Wow. You guys picked two really good ones. And I'm actually really happybecause I did pick a different one that would have stunk if we all agreed. Sothis is cool. We got a little switch up here, but my favorite, and actually I'mgoing to, I'm going to tell you why this is my favorite before I tell you whothe favorite is.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Do you want to, do you want us to guess afterward

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah, actually, that would be cool. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you why, andit's based off a few things. The primary one that like, is my decision basingis. I think the root of what we're talking about is B2B SaaS. Probably theearlier, the better, because the farther you go along, the more people youhave, like Tamara to come [00:41:00] in andsteer the ship and make things right. The fewer of those you have, right. Thenthe smaller your company, obviously the more opportunity you have for thefounder to take over. So that's number one. I think the fact that foundersdon't know product marketing. Is my number one thing there. Two, I think it wasthe spiciest episode of all of them. And three as like a bonus, it's somethingthat I just love. I just eat the shit out of in terms of the content, so goahead, what's your guess on who is my favorite?

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Anthony Pieri.

Track 1: sounds likeAnthony.

Track 1: Yep,Anthony.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:He came straight up and said, founders are idiots and they don't know whatthey're doing. And that is exactly how I feel.

Track 1: I don'tthink he used the exact language, though.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Hey, copy is copy. Copy

Track 1: Don't putwords in his mouth!

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Hey, copy is copy, but message is the message. And that's what I got. [00:42:00] And that's, at the end of the

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:day, they know a lot and they're really good at what they do. But most foundersare not good at product marketing, particularly positioning, messaging, runningproduct launches. And I think it was really cool to get that kind of called outand it was really spicy. The whole episode was spicy. I thought. All right. Sowrapping up I think it's pretty safe to say we've got pretty healthy amount oflisteners so far. So anyone who's taken their time to listen to thisoutrageously. Last minute put together podcast by a bunch of misfits whodecided to get a Descript subscription. Um, it's been awesome. I think it'sjust so cool to see the conversations fly. I'm checking the account all thetime to see who's commenting and liking our content. And to hear and see someof these conversations, either personally, or you guys [00:43:00]tossing them in the chat and us sharing them, it's just been like such anawesome four months of learning about people who are doing exactly what we'redoing.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:So thanks from the FrankenMarketer to everyone else listening for actuallyspending your time on these 15 episodes.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:No, yeah, I think you can you can say thanks for all of us from the sales theycan't turn in from the I'm talking for you, Zach, but I guess that you feel thesame for the

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:sales water boy as well. So yeah, it really means a lot and it's a really funjourney.

Track 1: Yeah. Ithink when I think about the, like what we build here and just kicking it withyou guys, the past flight, six, seven months, even before we started thispodcast is that it really filled my cup and especially when like last year, Ithink for many of us, like working in tech, when it was felt like a harder yearof working, I think this felt, this was always something I.

Track 1: Looked [00:44:00] forward to in my week when we would have aconversation about the pod when we would be chatting about in whatsapp, if wehad an upcoming guest working, doing the editing teases, it just didn't feellike work because it was just so much fun and. Like, where else would you, andwe spoke about this before, like, where else would you be able to sit down andtalk with individuals like Anthony, Tamara, Jason, Collin, Andy, Zach, Clara Ithink I'm forgetting one more person from the list.

Track 1: Who's theeighth? Who's the eighth? Oh, I feel terrible.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Peep also in there,

Track 1: Repeat.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:me and some of these legends, it's been, like you said, it's been sick,

Track 1: Yes.

Track 1: Yes. Andthen last but not least. Oh, Madison. Yes, we had Madison on

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:oh my,

Track 1: Save thebest for last.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:also, I want to piggyback off that, I don't think this was in our, this was [00:45:00] definitely not in our outline, folks, butI want to call something out Zach, you were already going through it, I wentthrough it weeks after we launched the pod, to have what we had, I don't knowwhat like my situation would have quite been like not to be able to just know Icould come and talk to you guys 1, 2, have the pod every week, and 3, like,when you go in and you're not doing anything it's easy to not do anything. Butfor us Like it was, we were working, right? We were putting stuff out there.Shit I'm never going to forget the grind to get out that 12 days of Christmas,right?

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Oh yeah.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:And it was fun, right? Instead of all the worries that you get in your normalnine to five, and then when things happen, you don't have a job. If you've gotsomething like this, who knows, what happens. And now I'm at Clue enjoying lifeand talking to more PMMs because it's their ICP, so it ends up turning out forus. Zach, I don't know if you want to share any of your details, but [00:46:00] you're doing pretty well for yourself nowtoo.

Track 1: Yeah, from,when we kicked this off, I kicked off my consultancy and, what's been reallycool since this time is still having consistent work like meeting really cool,building really cool relationships from individuals, either meeting from thepod or just just by hearing through it too.

Track 1: So it's beenreally fun charting out this new path of working for yourself. Who knows if I'mgoing to keep on doing this too but I think what's what I learned from workingwith you all is that it further affirmed that whatever role you choose, whetherif it's working for yourself or working at a organization.

Track 1: What'sbetter than a paycheck is that assuming if you're getting paid, what you'reworth is doing it with working with people you really have a great time for itand having fun with too, because when you can do that it's just going toamplify your work and the quality that you bring out too. So that's why I gotgab for yourself [00:47:00] here.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:It has been a way of as I said earlier, like an echo chamber those past fewmonths have been like a lot of different thoughts and like introspection on mycareer, what makes me happy, what gives me energy. I know that I always hadenergy for the pod. It was never a second thought. It was always like, okay,yeah, it's part of my weekly routine either going to the gym walking the dog,whatever it was.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Okay. Yeah, let's record the pod. Let's edit it. Let's work on the copy, thedescription, all of it. So yeah, like seeing and I felt like I needed to, bringthe level, bring the energy with you guys, especially during those difficulttimes. So yeah, I'm just grateful that it worked out well and wasn't that muchwork. Like we, we put on the hours, but it doesn't feel like hours wasted, likefar from it. Yeah, it's definitely something that, I enjoy doing a lot and is agreat memory for me.

Track 1: So do wereveal the [00:48:00] results now of what wegot?

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah. Let's kick it over to Adam and let's just ask about about those surveyresults.

ADAM SCENE

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:Welcome

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:To the very last episode of We're Not Marketers. We came on here, we've had aburning question throughout every single episode, and it's time that weactually asked our guests. And we needed an unbiased emcee to come on andreveal these, so you knew that they weren't tainted by any of us. We had noother choice but to invite the one and only Adam McQueen on. From Klue to comegive the results firsthand. And Gab, I'd like to give you the honors of askingthe most important question on our show one final time.

gub_1_03-21-2024_153938:Thank you, Eric. And thank you very much for being here, Adam. So are productmarketers actually marketers?

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:That is the age old question, friends. Honor to be here. It's [00:49:00] stoked. And I finally my journalism degreeis coming to use here. My teachers are used to always tell me to be an unbiasedtruth teller. And I can tell the truth here. Not just the bias takes that youthree have been spouting off all season.

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:I can say that 76. 7 percent of respondents said that yes, product marketersare, in fact, marketers. You are in the minority, the people don't agree withyou how is that landing with the three of you? I see a lot of I see a lot ofhands on hips or like a little kind of dismay shock. What, what's going throughyour mind right now, Zach?

Track 1: Adam, whenYou said minority, it feels as a double entendre here. So you know,

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:You know how I feel?

Track 1: It doesn'tcut deeper than that

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:You know how I feel? I feel like one of those founders [00:50:00]who thought he had such a really good idea. And then went and got all that VCmoney and built a product and then no one actually wanted to buy it. That's howI'm feeling.

gub_1_03-21-2024_153938:That's a, that's a good, that's a good metaphor. I feel like I thought myproduct was going to be game changing, but then it's just a chat GPT wrapper.

Track 1: It goes toshow spicy takes can't push the boulder over the hill alone. Just, we got toaccept our loss and no, we didn't win this one.

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:Why? Why didn't we win? What's going on?

Track 1: I'm like,Adam, we should be asking you. You're the one who works at Klue.

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:I do work at Klue. I'm not a product marketer. I'm a huge fan of productmarketers. I get to talk to them all the time. Why don't I think, why do Ithink people, I Klue product marketing does sit with marketing. And so I'mgoing to be a part of the 76 percent here. It, I think when you look at whatproduct marketing wears a lot of hats insert cliche here, but being the voiceof product [00:51:00] to bring it to market,like that's where I see it being a marketing function, to get meta here, Ericwas on an enablement session today, educating our go to market teams on what iscoming with out with the product. And without getting into like semanticsthere, like it is innately serving and supporting, uh, go to market teams andthings that are going to be happening in the field with external facingcollateral, all of those pieces.

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:You could go either way on this, but that's where I see it as. being a part ofmarketing. Plus I selfishly want to say that I get to work with Eric and he'son our team.

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:The 76. 7%. You just like being in that comfort zone, but I also, I'm going tothrow something back at you you gave a great example. I'm going to give you anexample where it might be on the other foot. Remember. Oh man, what was it afew weeks ago or even last week I connected you and Grayson with Kevin and youwere like, Oh man, it's so weird having that connective tissue to the productteam now. Like on its own island, right? [00:52:00]PMN came in, put a little glue together between the

Track 1: Lockshorses.

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:So that's where I think we the three of us who created the pod, that's where wefundamentally say, If I was only in marketing, then my boy Adam wouldn't havehad that connective tissue over there to product.

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:It's like you're nomads, but you need a home. You need a home where the, it's alittle chicken and the egg too. I mean,

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:I think that's the purpose of the question, but,

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:um,

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:We can all

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:I don't know where,

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:We can all agree on one thing though, product marketing shouldn't situnderneath sales.

gub_1_03-21-2024_153938:That's a fair point. Yeah,

Track 1: But, hey,even though I disagree with the poll, I wholeheartedly disagree with the poll.As product marketers, We're going to listen to the audience and we're going tohear it out. But the one thing I'm going to add here is I said this earlierthis week, y'all is that back in the day, Copernicus [00:53:00]came into the, came into the church, the Catholic church.

Track 1: And he waslike, yo, the planets revolve around the sun. Nope, no one vines with thattake, and look at where we're at today. So even though people may not agree,

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:well, If you ask Kyrie Irving, it seems like there's, we're going back aroundagain with that whole logic. So maybe this, your arguments just worked againstyou here.

Track 1: No, Kairi'ssaying the earth is flat. Copernicus never said that.

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:Yeah, I guess you're

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:Maybe he's disproving Copernicus.

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:what shape it was. He just said it's in a circular motion.

Track 1: Copernicusstayed in his lane. Copernicus just said, hey. The planets revolve inside Iain't gonna jump in that conversation. Ha! If

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:that. I know we're all historians and philosophers here, at least we can settleon the fact that no matter what, it's good, healthy debate. And it's awesomethat we can have, one side to one thing and one side to the other. [00:54:00] And not have a third world war based onthe conversation. So I love this.

gub_1_03-21-2024_153938:Yeah. And I disagree a bit with what you said earlier, Adam, that, we're nomadsand, but we need a place to call home, but at the same time, I don't think wedo like ultimately our home is the company, right? think best

Track 1: kick youout.

gub_1_03-21-2024_153938:honestly,

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:Yeah,

gub_1_03-21-2024_153938:I feel PMMs are not necessarily, Oh, I just care about marketing KPIs or justcare about product KPIs or. Sales KPIs or whatever. I think it's a lot about, Iwant to make the organization successful and I like the fact that I'm a nomadbecause I can yeah, I need stuff to prove that my job is relevant and I bringquick wins and results, but ultimately I'm able to discover a lot more of thenook and crannies of what's happening. In hidden corners of the wholeorganization, basically,

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:Okay.

Track 1: like thatWell,

Track 1: Man, you goAdam, you go ahead.

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:[00:55:00] Yeah, I'm going to, I just want topoke on that one then. Do you, is your argument then that like productmarketing should be its own function, its own standalone function that sits.And looks at marketing sales product as peers. Is that the argument or is itthat they should be this?

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:They don't need to be attached to a label. You can't label product markets.They can't be put in a box. What is what's the lane you're going with there?

gub_1_03-21-2024_153938:that's a good

gub_1_03-21-2024_153938:question. I would say,

Track 1: Yes. Oh, goahead. I will say something

gub_1_03-21-2024_153938:would just say, and I'll pass you the ball afterward, man. But I would just saythat the way I'm seeing it in business, if you don't put labels on things, itcan get chaotic really quick. So I would not take the un-labeling route. Iwould maybe see it as, know, working with the peers, but the way I'm reallyseeing it is. I don't know if strategy should be its own department. And Ithink that Tamara said it in, in the interview we did with her. But if strategywas a department, I feel like product marketing would [00:56:00]live very well in that potential department.

Track 1: A few pointsto add to that question, Adam. In the first part, it's not quite. And the firstpart to that is when we had Colin on the conversation earlier this season, hementioned how you look at job descriptions today. If you see a productmarketing role and for individuals who are within marketing and they read a jobdescription in product marketing, they're like, That's not product marketing.

Track 1: They maylump in like content demand gen. So that's like the end of that first part.It's not to settle on marketing alone and going into the second piece is thatwhen we were saying we're not marketers. What we're inherently saying is thatto lump product marketers as part of marketing, that's part of the problem asto why this function gets misunderstood of Hey, like your product marketing, gofind us [00:57:00] leads.

Track 1: So when wecan sit there and say, we're not marketing, that gives us space to furtherexplore. What is product marketing? How does product marketing influence thebroader marketing function too? And that gives you a better base, a more honestreflection of okay. I'm a product marketer. If I'm being thrown in to do demandgen, I don't know it, but maybe I can learn it versus being thrown into demandgen and having this unfair expectation and assumption that you should knowdemand gen, you should know brand marketing.

Track 1: The currentway of how product workers are viewed within product, within marketing today.It sets a lot of like PMFs up for failure rather than success. So by sayingthis point of view, it gives us more space and a more honest reflection andeasier expectations to manage with our cross functional stakeholders of what isproduct marketing and what is not product marketing?

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:I was going to say that's like a, maybe it's not even like a lot [00:58:00] of these things are okay, what are wetitling this? But what really matters is how you operate, how you're viewed andwhat you're. And then the organization knows what value you bring. And it'slike you mentioned there, like charter at the end, this is what we do.

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:And this is what we don't do regardless of where we sit, like establishingthose ground rules, is, and bringing clarity amongst the organization of how wewill operate, I think is the most important thing, at least from an outsider'sperspective,

Track 1: Exactly.

gub_1_03-21-2024_153938:I like it. And I feel like it's a lot about I, even if 76 percent of peopledisagree with us, I feel like lot of it is, we've been hearing it with multipleguesses, but it's yes, but always like that, but aspect of things. And I feellike we did a good job with this journey, with this, with trying out having apodcast of trying to define a little bit more of what does product marketing orgood product marketing looks like. [00:59:00]And I think this is little bit towards having those labels well defined. Andmaking sure that we're not keeping the idea of I look at a product marketingposition in a specific organization. And when I take a look at another role oranother post or whatever, it's day and night. I'm really proud of what we did.I would have loved those numbers to be like the opposite of 75 percent agreeingwith us, but hey, we can't win them all.

Track 1: Yeah. And Ithink I'm going to give one more last example. And Adam, you're going to likethis. This comes back from back in the day when I was in sales, I was I was afirst year AE had a. Full book of accounts working at tech. I had this deal,man. I was feeling hot about it. I'm sitting there. I already talked to theteachers about this.

Track 1: The teachersare loving the tool. They're like, Oh, we got to talk to our principal. Theprincipal is the chief decision maker. Present them the demo. He's Oh, I loveit. Okay, cool. You walk out of that conversation. You're feeling good [01:00:00] about yourself. You're like, I know thisdeal is going to get signed.

Track 1: A few weekslater, the deal doesn't close. I'm shocked. I hit up the principal. I was like,Hey man, what's going on? What happened? I spoke to, so the three of the fiveteachers that like your tool, they're moving to a different school. So they'renot going to be here. The other two don't use it. So going back to the pointthat Gab mentioned earlier is that their nuances exist.

Track 1: There'snuances in marketing, there's different points of view and to overlook thosenuances as I did in that deal is a dangerous line of thinking. So we can saythat like product marketers are marketers, but when nuances like this, whenpeople are saying, but yes, but we also do this and this, that warrants adeeper discussion.

Track 1: Thatwarrants a deeper exploration is that product marketers may be marketers. Youagree, but there is maybe a potential where product markers are more than [01:01:00] marketers. And exploring thatrelationship. Increases the success of what You can do in your individual rolesand not lose a deal. Like I did back in 2016,

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:You don't need to explore like it makes me think of specialization. What doesthe best in class product marketing function look like? And what are thespecializations within that in each role? Because it does like again, there youmentioned is like the yeah, but this is okay let's see if you had, let's playlike you got, it's like fantasy football.

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:So you can draft your team. What are the roles you'd build to build yourultimate product marketing team and what their specializations would be? Thatwould be it'd be cool to hear.

Track 1: like thedream team of, Yeah, what are the dream teams? So you can give more likeclarity on what those roles are. It's not just a promarket of doing frickineverything.

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:Say, no, this is where we're gonna focus and these are the roles to give themfocus within that focus.

Track 1: I know Iwon't put Shaq You should do a draft. You should do a draft against each other.Have a bunch of titles, have a bunch of roles of folks.

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:[01:02:00] I

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:That'd be cool.

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:especially.

Track 1: That'd be agreat idea.

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:Oh yeah. With the NFL draft coming

gub_1_03-21-2024_153938:on it.

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:in two months, that might be a good idea. that one in the bank boys. And youknow what, Adam, I want to say one more thing. This is more of an ego boost foryou. So what Zach was saying earlier is elevate maybe product marketing morethan a marketer. What I've noticed, especially like in my six weeks here, I cannever claim I'm a channel expert. You know what I mean? What Jacqueline does?No, never asked me to do that. Even what you do, right? I have no, like yourexpertise in the channel is something that a product marketer either doesn'thave. Because they, that's just not the things they gotta do, jobs to be done,or they don't have the bandwidth to flex that muscle, so I also like to callout that. Like your knowledge in those channels [01:03:00]and that specific, like function of marketing is something that no productmarketer can ever claim.

Track 1: And for

Track 1: context,y'all, they're talking about Klue.

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:we got oils and grease in this machine, things running. Um, all right, thenthat wraps it up for the results on whether product marketing actually ismarketing and your boys here at we're not marketers have lost.

Track 1: Have beenhumbled. Ha

adam_1_03-21-2024_123938:Dare to be different, gentlemen.

eric-holland_1_03-21-2024_153938:All right. difference comes with risk, And we see it firsthand, We saw itfirsthand,

END OF ADAM

Track 1: All right.So now he gave us the results. We now, we know what happened now. Is this wherewe, we shut it down. We shut it down. So y'all heard it first. Now you confirmthe suspicions that product marketers are actually marketers. So there's notmuch for us else to say.

Track 1: I, myself,it is a very sad day.

Track 1: [01:04:00] Myself, um, when we first launched thisepisode, like we said at the beginning of this conversation, it was a very hottake. I had to move down to San Diego because that San Francisco just wasn'thand, couldn't handle the heat. I, I think Gab, Eric, I think y'all had somesignificant life changes because of this podcast.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah. On my end uh, like thinking about the fact that my, all of my likebackground is in marketing and now I'm in product marketing. And now we realizethat product marketing. Is actually marketing based on those results just makesme feel weird inside. I still try to ponder what is happening. And I justturned 30 as well. So it's like a quarter life crisis all over again. So I'mleaving for a month in South America and I don't know if I'm coming back.

Track 1: My man, yousaid you turned 30, you said [01:05:00] quarterlife crisis. I'm hoping you see 120, man. I hope you see 120 years old,

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Thanks, man. I'll I'll do my best. I'll drink a yerba mate and I'll be fine.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Yeah. I think I've just had a kid for those who don't know. My first sonarrived a few weeks ago and I don't think there's a whole lot of explanationother than that, but I will say that, hearing these results, seeing theseresults it makes me think that I need to put my priorities where they need tobe at this time. Yeah, I think that's all I got to say there.

Track 1: what you'resaying, Eric sounds very synonymous when a politician gets caught up in ascandal of I'm going to spend my time with my family and reflect on my lifedecision.

gab_1_03-09-2024_123231:Pleading the fifth

Track 1: yeah, Ithink us getting these answers, I don't, I wouldn't equate it to. Watergate byany means, but

Track 1: yeah,

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:we've lost the election is what these

Track 1: we got somereflection to do here.

Track 1: This, Ithink this is the last time you'll hear from us unless you want to re listen toprior episodes, but the [01:06:00] answer'sout, the answer's out now. Product marketers are marketers, so not much elsefor us to do.

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Thanks for coming..

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:To all of our product marketers out there, thank you for coming to the lastepisode of We're Not

eric-holland_1_03-09-2024_123231:Marketers.

Track 1: Oh, no, thetitle's changed now. We're marketers based off results.

OUTRO

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