Most PMMs feel sellers don’t do what they tell ’em. Ears fume after listening to a random customer call recording, because a sales rep decided not to stay on message. Sellers feel no different about PMMs.
90% of sales and marketing professionals point to a number of disconnects across strategy, process, content, and culture. (LinkedIn, 2020). It’s astounding! How can two professions, most focused on the customer persona, stand at odds like Will Ferrell & John C. Reilly in 2008’s Stepbrothers?
In this next episode, our co-hosts speak on most common challenges between marketing and sales teams. How to navigate those dynamics to be a better friend to sellers that PMs can’t get from any product roadmap. And, the co-hosts share tips you can use to foster instant karma points with your selling partners.
Episode 2 (Edited v1)
[00:00:00]
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:Do You feel that in 2023, almost 2024, there's still silos between marketingand sales?
Track 1: Yeah,
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:I think that's just inherent with the job.
Track 1: reallyinherent with the job. I hate hearing that, but I'm gonna agree with, uh, theoutcome and that's Yeah, for sure.
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:Yeah. Cool. Happy that you guys agree. I, I would be a bit surprised if you,you folks disagree, but,
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:I think that's why we're on this podcast today because we agree with everythingwe say.
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:Exactly. Yeah. Please always agree with what I say.
Track 1: Wespecifically said no guests on today's call 'cause we all wanna be in agreementso.
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:yeah,
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:exactly. [00:01:00] Exactly. A hundred percent.
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:there's,
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:already enough conflict as there is between marketing and sales, so we justwanted to have a smooth ship for this one time being.
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:Love that. Love that thinking. The reason why I'm kind of bringing the subjectis, um, I've been in, in those shoes where I was a solo marketer at thestartup. I was trying to do a good job and, the quality of my job was based onleads and the quality of the job of the
Gab: sales team wasbased
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:on less. Turn those leads into revenue. Right? I'm seeing that this silo canactually create a big issue for pmms. sales don't understand the role ofproduct marketing and the easy instinct is to just put us in the marketingcategory. We all think in this podcast that we're not marketers. This is on thetitle. Um, but I think that because they, they believe that we are in themarketing [00:02:00] team, we don't have likethe same level of understanding of the customer that they have in the salesteam head. It's not always, oh, pmms are the expert on the customers.
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:Right. So because of that, when we start going at them and, Hey, I want to makeyour job easier, I will help you create a new deck. I will help you have thisresource. I will help you, uh, do a better job of achieving quota and doingdemos. We're always starting with a position of weaknesses because theirunderstanding for us is, oh, it's just our marketer that is doing webinar anddesign stuff and doesn't understand the customers. I'll just pause here. Anytells on that?
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:One thing I wanted to add real quick is that like as part of like myconsultancy, like I've had a chance to talk to like several sales leaders andone common theme that from their perspective when they see marketing. Or likeproduct [00:03:00] marketing is like they feelthere's a disconnect between the goals that marketing is tracked on and whatsales is tracked on.
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:So going back to the example, gab, what you said is that hey, marketing'sfocused on creating leads while sales wants to create revenue. And like one ofthe sales leaders I was talking to, he like runs a sales development team andhe said it. I'll have marketing come up to me and said, they said, Hey, we hitour webinar goal, like we got all the leads that delivered to you.
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:All. You guys go and close them and then he'll be like, , these webinar leadsare not converting. So it's like despite marketing hitting their goal, sales isleft out to dry.
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:And the last point I wanted to say is that I can understand as like a formersalesperson, like Why like sellers don't care about product marketers?
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:Is that because like when you've got a quota to hit, it's like [00:04:00] every second, every minute is focused onwhat can I do to make sure I get my job done? If it's not
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:relevant to helping me hit quota, it's not worth my time.
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:You've been in those shoes, so you understand it better than anyone. So I thinkthat's a, that's a really great take. And based on that, I think the best way,ultimately to define correctly the role of product marketing with sales is togo directly where the money is. And I'm in the quota, so my solution if youwant to elevate your authority with sales and if you want to work with them andnot looking as, I'm the guy that does webinar with leads that don't convert,you should start by bringing value into their work. And to me, working in abusiness development agency, the best way to do that, it is to start with theoutbound team. So
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:I'm talking SDRs, I'm talking BDRs, and the method that [00:05:00] I kind of started doing it is. Usually thoseprofessionals are just by themself and trying to figure out how can I craft myemails? How can I craft my dms and my messaging to resonate with prospects?
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:So it's a whole jungle because you by yourself don't always have the help ofmarketers or even product marketers. You need to figure that stuff out. So ifyou get started with. Helping them. Hey, you know, can we chat one hour everyweek and I'll help you get a better messaging out there and ultimately reachyour quota if a BDR or SDR are telling you no, it's just because they don'twant to work here. At least that's my take.
Track 1: Well, and Ithink that's a good point too, because what you're also seeing, or at least I'mseeing, I'm not gonna say the rest of y'all are, but, um, not just messagingvia email or going the way of sales navigator [00:06:00]and going LinkedIn, but doing the cold call. Right. And it doesn't just have tobe what type of email can I help you craft?
Track 1: But it's howwhen you are talking on that cold call or potentially translate to a demo, areyou actually bringing the value of our offering to the customer? Or are you infeature land? Right? Are you, are you communicating our offering in a way that.We would all agree that's different than the other 5, 10, 15 competitors theycould be considering.
Track 1: And I thinkthat was a really good point, gab, like if you get in there and spend your timewith that outbound team, that's kind of some quick wins and some things thatthey can use I think right away. So, yeah, man, I, and I wanted to takesomething if, if you don't mind, I don't want to take away from any additionalpoints.
Track 1: So you guyshave anything you wanna jump or piggyback off of that last one?
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:[00:07:00] I was gonna, I was gonna add, um, afew different things here. One is that like. One thing that I found was veryeffective for me when I was working with like our smaller sales team, and thisreally depends on like the scale. This is not scalable if you have 70 salesreps in your organization. So don't do this if you're in a startup, do do this.Sit down with each sales rep and ask 'em like, Hey, what are your top five mostchallenging deals right now? And when you get, when you have that conversationwith them. Ask them specifics like, Hey, what do you need to help move thisdeal forward? And from my experience of working, it's, it can always be like,like one of three things.
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:It's like, Hey, is there an asset that we can create? Is there like a onepager?
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:Another piece is that, is there like A piece of knowledge that you need toknow. Like is there a way we can better differentiate what we're talking about?Is like the competitive market intel too as well? Or is it like, are wetargeting the right people? Are we putting the right people in front of youtoo? So by sitting down with them, that [00:08:00]helps us get laser focused on like what are ways we can help these reps movethe deal forward and better positions you as like from a As a product marketerand more of a partner to help them move forward in these conversations too. Um,from like a broader scale, let's say if you have a larger organization, whatare some of the systems that you can click, plug and play right now?
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:You can create, like, customer quote bank. That's money. If you can build out acustomer quote bank and you can organize it based off of value props ordifferent products, and you share it with a sales team, say, here's quotes thatyou can repurpose into your emails, you can repurpose into your like slidedecks.
zach---he-him-_1_11-29-2023_125128:Here's what you can if, if they're externally approved. If you can use these inlike your decks too as well. Um, so thinking of like tools that can reallyexpand your effort and reach and that helps them, like [00:09:00]position them more as less as salespeople and more as like market advisors ofunderstanding the market. Then you're in there. That's, that, that's just alittle bit I've, I've seen that's been effective in the past.
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:Would just like to jump on that. And I think it's a really good tip, especiallylike the bank of customer quotes, but also the idea of, you know, in a smallerorg asking them what are the top five deals you're struggling with? I've beenin larger orgs where it's more like everyone has a quota. I'm a PMM responsibleof one line of product, and then I can see, okay, so who's under that quota?
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:Who's really struggling the product? And then I can just offer, Hey man, do youwant to take, I don't know, half an hour and just do a mock demo with me justto see if you are up there with the top performer? It's, you know, you're justgiving out a hand and then you are able to just challenge them and they willjust come out being better salesman. , if you start with the outbound team,then you can move up to the A and AM [00:10:00]team and ultimately you'll, you'll start having calls with sales leader, uh, ina really short amount of time.
Track 1: Well, I'vegot, I've got a, uh, little incident that I think I can share that'll helpbring this into focus or at least my point a little bit. So when I was a, aprevious company, one of the things I didn't necessarily understand at thetime, because I came from a different, a different, um. Right. I came frommanufacturing, not software, and we'd have these large group enablementsessions in person, hands-on training.
Track 1: Right? Likeliterally hands-on the thing. And we'd do that for like hours. I mean,sometimes it would be multiple days of a session. Right? And what I've. I'velearned that I didn't translate early on when I came to software is thatrepetition process, right? Just like our positioning. We can't just set it andforget it.
Track 1: You gotta [00:11:00] like, keep going at it, right? And so Imade this mistake early on when I first made my first battle cards, right? Itwas like everyone was so excited for these battle cards. They were dynamic.They weren't like, you know, a PDF file that sat in the wasteland. We launched'em and I'm looking at the usage rate and I'm like, what?
Track 1: What's goingon here? Right? Talking to the reps, they're saying, you know, not really usingit. And at the time I didn't know exactly why. And then of course, fast forwardand, and a lot of other bumps and bruises, it's about getting 'em the rightknowledge at the right time. Right. We've already kind of talked about that.
Track 1: They've gota busy schedule and their mind's focused on, on quota, but then doing it over.Over and over again until they come back to you and say, Hey, I used that thingyou did the other day, as opposed to, you know, me getting on a gong callwatching it and being like, ah, and use that new messaging. Right.
Track 1: And I thinkthat's a really good way to, to [00:12:00]influence and kind of make your mark on the sales team is to not just treat 'emas like, Hey, here's this thing, you should know this, but be understandingwith them and say. Hey, this is a tough concept. Let's keep attacking thisuntil you're sick of it or until you've grasped it and you know, it's kind ofanother, um, mastered tool in your tool belt.
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:Yeah, I think it's a really good point that you're bringing, I want to createsomething of value and then I'm looking at the data. If I have the data eventhen, and it's kind of a nightmare. I took a lot of hours, I worked with a lotof people, lot of stakeholders to push that live, and what I'm seeing is no oneis using it, and I think it's all about creating a habit as well. So if youwork with the top performers and you are able to kind of bring that idea of,Hey, let's use this, let's [00:13:00] do that.Let's try this out with the deals that you're kind of unsure or idled in youroverall pipeline, you will be able to ultimately see a difference. And if not,I will be your right arm every step of the way, ready to tweak stuff out tomake it work.
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:It's my job. So we need to kind of change that narrative that I'm not pushingout out their webinar or visual or whatever and then I'm like, Hmm, I don'tunderstand why it didn't work. You know, it's all about testing and notforgetting and being a broken record that we need to push that out there. And Ifeel like just by design, pmms are not the type of getting bored of theircampaigns. Like we need to see enough rollout. To ultimately take the rightdecisions on it.
Track 1: I toTallyagree with you, man. And I, I see this more and more almost, you know, if youthink about all of the work we do, and this leads into another point I had, but[00:14:00] a lot of the work that we do is kindof thankless, right? Like, let's say I need that slide deck by the end of theday, right? We put all this effort, all this time, and all this passion intothat slide deck.
Track 1: We ask 'emon Monday after their sales call, how was it? They're like, oh, I didn't end upusing it. Right? And so naturally, I think as humans we, we then we wannacreate those silos, right? Like, oh, next time sales needs something, they'renot gonna use it anyways. So why put that same level of effort, same level ofintensity?
Track 1: And I thinkit just falls back to that point of like. , they got that presenta, you may,you may have made that presentation on Friday, delivered it to them on Friday.They had their weekend. You've had no real enablement session with them. Right.And now they're, they're supposed to go articulate that conversation and thatslide deck on that Monday call.
Track 1: And I seethat, [00:15:00] you know, I've done it. I knowothers do it. And I, I think that's, that's one of the things that. Wouldreally break down that silo is if people in our shoes as well as sales, right,reciprocate back to us and say, Hey, I know you spent an hour with our team.Could you give me another 30 minute session on that value prop as in value propmessaging, right?
Track 1: Um, and Ithink if, if we start to build that relationship, you're gonna see the silobreakdown naturally, where it's not such a transactional relationship. It's a,it's a real team comradery and seeing how can we help, how can we enable, um,where am I really struggling at in terms of closing sales? Is it really that Idon't have enough, um, at bats?
Track 1: Am I notgetting enough at bats or is the pitcher constantly throwing me 95 mile an hourfastballs that I can't hit and I need more, you know, soft tosses, right?
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:[00:16:00] Can you redo the same analogy, butwith hockey terms,
Track 1: Oh yeah.
Track 1: So, uh,instead of trying to save a goal, or score a goal, you've got Patrick w in thenet, or you've got Eric Holland in the net. Like, I want, I want Eric Hollandin the net while I'm trying to score a goal instead of Patrick W in there.Right? So, how, hopefully that was a little bit
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:Amazing.
gab_1_11-29-2023_155128:it was, it was almost on point.