In this episode, providing clarity on what product does, instead of pushing generic buzzwords feels like finding a needle in a haystack. But why does it keep happening, especially with early-stage startups?
Anthony Pierri, Cofounder of FletchPMM, is sharing his insights on why most startups’ homepage sucks, after racking up over 120 different homepage messaging with different companies.
Why most startup homepages in B2B SaaS suck w/Anthony Pierri
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This isn't a podcast on labeling product marketing. This is apodcast for product marketing managers who feel misunderstood internallybecause building slide decks and writing copy is not all that we do. So ourtoday's product marketers, actually marketers.
Zach: Let's do it.
Gab: Anthony Pierri,thank you very much for being on We're Not Marketers. We're super happy to haveyou.
Anthony: Thanks forhaving me. Super excited.
Zach: Yeah. We weretalking before the conversation, Anthony there's not a day that goes by thatyour posts do not come up on my feed. And it's always something of like highvalue. Jason, actually Jason Oakley said it yesterday. He's Hey. Is you andRobert are the defined OGs of homepage messaging.
Anthony: I love tohear that. And that's a niche we've set out to try to own. And we shrink ourniche every couple months. And at the beginning it was like we're doing productmarketing for startups and we've shrunk [00:01:00]it all the way down to homepage messaging. Just that little corner of theworld.
Zach: Homepagemessaging and early stage founders from like personal experience working withearly stage founders, they're very protective over what is said, how they'rerepresented, and sometimes that may come off as a bit resistant with the workthat you do.
Zach: You and Robertdo with Fletch PMM like how do you navigate that dynamic where your messaging beless of a megaphone and more of a personal conversation? But, then you haveto navigate like that hubris or the ego or the louder opinions in the room toshow like what you are doing is the effective way of going?
Anthony: So this iswhy our LinkedIn posts are written the way that they're written. We havingthose arguments with the founder for the six months that they're reading ourposts before they ever reach out to us. So ideally, by the time they come tous, already convinced [00:02:00] them they comeon and say in the sales call, We've been reading your posts for the last sixmonths. I used to think lead with the benefits. Nobodycares about the product, but you guys have convinced me that it's not that way.And then those projects go really well. The ones where it gets a littletrickier are actually referrals, which in most businesses are the lifeblood.
Anthony: Everythingis done. Referrals. For us, referral projects are almost always our worstbecause we have to condense the six months of trust building that someone whoreads our posts would get. into the 25 minute sales call, and then while we'reon the project, so when we're in the room trying to work out the best way toposition and message a company on their homepage. also trying to explain theunderlying concepts of why we think what we do that are often very against thegrain of what they've learned. So for them it's like they're going throughthese big, like just re-imagining how they think about marketing and messaging.And sometime is pretty hard.
Anthony: And [00:03:00] they're pretty resistant. So we've hadprojects where we get through the whole thing, we give the recommendations.They're like, Okay, sounds good. And then they don't actually end upusing them or they'll use them, but they'll just change them to all the worstpossible version of what we wrote. Like they'll rework and just like undo allof the key decisions we made. And then we're like. Okay. What are you gonna do?This is our recommendation. You can use it. You don't have to use it. You paidfor it, but,
anthony-pierri_1_12-01-2023_130546:so
Anthony: we'll seethose. Those projects are not quite as successful, but the really successfulones are when they come in and they already agree because we've battled it outof them in all the months leading up to working together.
Zach: That the lifeof a marketer 1 0 1.
Eric: Anthony, do youmind sharing who came up with that idea? Because I will share this. I love yourapproach. More recently, I feel like I've seen it like that been argumentativein a way. wHere did that come from? Because I'm now hearing you hear why you'redoing it and it's genius.
Eric: You've had thebattle before [00:04:00] they've ever reallylanded in your pipe. Where'd that come from?
Anthony: There's areally smart lady named Wes, and I don't know if it's Ko or Kao. was one of theco-founders of Maven.
Anthony: She talksabout these two principles that have been guiding principles for Fletch, makingour content since we started. She calls it the super specific how. Which islike explaining something in a post, how to do something at an extreme level ofspecificity and detail. And then the other piece is having a spiky opinion. Sotaking a contrarian approach to something, it out there really bold, like JasonFreed from 37 Signals. great example. If you follow him or DH, the otherfounder, the two of them, I think DHH, maybe there's two Hs. I think. The twoof them are like poster child of how you can do this really well. So we've beentrying to incorporate that and I think as time has gone on and we've just,we've worked with so many founders [00:05:00]at this point we've worked with close to 120 different companies
Anthony: that's notlike handing it off to a team, some big agency like literally me and Rob. In,hundreds of thousands of, not hundreds of thousands, hundreds slash thousandsof hours with these people. And so I think probably around Company 90, the sameobjections and thoughts over and over again. It's like my, maybe just thefilter of like
Anthony: the nice,now I just say it as bold as possible. 'cause I'm like, you need to wake up,you need to take you, I need to shake you out of this nonsense that has been.in you from all these terrible sources and just wake you up to the fact thatyou're creating a business with the point of making money with customers whobuy a product. And those things are all very very hot takes to say that astartup is selling a product to people. You wouldn't expect that, but there's alot of people who disagree with that fundamental premise. It's existed sincethe creation of currency,
Anthony: you
anthony-pierri_1_12-01-2023_130546:of
Anthony: thousands ofyears ago or wherever it [00:06:00] was may,maybe tens of thousands of years ago when currency was created. Up until now,people have said, we buy products, but B2B marketers came along and we're likeno. We buy outcomes. Yeah, we're disruptive. We buy and sell outcomes. No onewants to buy a product.
Zach: Oh, I'm guiltyof that.
Anthony: well you'repart of the problem then.
Zach: Oh, this is whywe, that's what we created. We're Not Marketers, because we're trying toget out of that problem.
gab_1_12-01-2023_140546:Exactly. We
Gab: We're living theproblem with someone else. But speaking about
Gab: that, AnthonyPierri, I think
Gab: it's already myfavorite episode ever.
Zach: and we're sevenminutes in.
eric-holland_1_12-01-2023_140546:Well, I
Eric: don't know. Idon't know if anyone caught my dumb ass, but we're recording this and it'll belive on, multiple outlets. And I'm over here taking notes on a sticky notebecause he's dropping gold already. So
Gab: Yeah, it isbecause
Eric: we've alreadyknow it's good. Episode when I'm writing down stuff,
Anthony: I love it.
Gab: But yeah,Anthony, are product marketers actually marketers? And why or why not?
Anthony: I, here's mytake. I think in the [00:07:00] startup world,has to do the product marketing part, and for me, product marketing is the onlymarketing that should be happening at all. I don't think unless you're buildingsomething like for example, liquid Death, you could argue that they were like astartup, not
Zach: Oh, Eric lovesLiquid Death.
Anthony: Yeah. So
Eric: So bullish onthem. Yep.
Anthony: Liquid Death's great, right? They're sellinga pretty easy to understand product. It's water, right? We're all prettyfamiliar with water, what water is. So for them, they need to lead with brandmarketing because it's, why would I buy water in a can when I could buy it in abottle, or I could get it from a drinking phone. So they need to lead on brandmarketing. SaaS startups, B2B SaaS startups are almost always doing somethingnew. Very rarely do you see them coming along and being like, Hey, I rebuiltGoogle Calendar. It's a new calendar here. It is. [00:08:00] 'causepeople they know they'll never be able to compete. So it's almost always themixing of multiple different apps bringingthings together in a new way. so for them, the last thingthey should be spending time on is brandmarketing. Because nobody cares about the brand. If they don't even know whatthe product is, when I would useit, how I would use it, who would use it. Any of those fundamental questionsthat when we look at Liquid Death and we see that it's water instinctively, weknow the answer to all those questions.
Anthony: It's water. would drink it when I'm thirsty,right? you don't have to, but you all those are outta the way. But with SaaS,we just see maximize your revenue, increase your ROI and we're like,what is it? And they might have a great brand message and stuff. So for me, I'mlike the only marketing that should really be happening for an early stage B2BSaaS startup is marketing about the product, here's something I've built. [00:09:00] shoulduse it in your company. You shouldpay me to have access to this product in your company. And. A lot ofpeople obviously disagree with that and would say No, that's dumb. Wesell to the enterprise. So the enterprise doesn't buy products, they just buyoutcomes and things like that, we could talk about if you want.
Anthony: Butessentially for me, I'm like the only realmarketing that should be happening is marketing about the product. And for me,that is what a product marketer is doing, is marketing the product. ButI think I saw on your guys' website you disagree, so I'd be curious to hearpushback.
Eric: Yeah, so Iwanna actually ask you a question. So earlier you mentioned how, I thinkparticularly the founders that you're working with they're either have badhabits or they've essentially followed the leader somewhere else and it'screated this bad habit. How much of that do you think is traditional, marketinginfluence, getting in there versus, other things that you've seen?
Eric: 'cause Ihonestly can't, I can't speak to that side as much.
Anthony: There's acouple [00:10:00] a bunch of different reasons.
Anthony: Thearchetypal founder pair is a builder and a seller, a technical person and alike visionary, sales minded. I'm gonna go sell the vision to investors, tocustomers and stuff. group of people in the VC world, I think Emily Kramer wasthe one who pointed out 1% of VCs have marketing in their background. So you'vegot
Anthony: a wholeecosystem
Anthony: where no onehas any clue of how to market a product. And that's in the early stage. So youhave founders, they go and they pitch this big vision and a lot of times theiris very vague and broad and aspirational, and the investors are like, Idon't really care what your product is. I'm investing in you. I believe you canmake it happen. Your product's gonna pivot, so I don't really care. Andthen the founder gets that in their mind too, and they're trying to make thisvision a reality, forgetting that there's actually like a product that someoneneeds to buy. So you get all this badhabits because there's just a lack of the understanding in most of the peoplerunning these companies. But you also get these [00:11:00]problems because it's like a, Ithink I've used this example before. It's like the, if it's if you wanted tostart golfing and the only knowledge you had of golfing was the movie, HappyGilmore. Adam Sandler in that movie, I think I wanna, I never even backfact checked it to see if this is right, but I'm pretty sure that's the moviewhere he says it's all in the hips and he is like trying to tell him how to doit.
Anthony: He is it's all
Anthony: the hips. So if you had, if you have onepiece of advice. Then you were like, I'm gonna become a pro golfer and the onlypiece of advice I know is it's all in the hips. And so I go out there and Istart swinging my hips all over the place and everyone's what the heck are youdoing?
Anthony: And I'm like, I'm doing the advice. I don'tknow why it's not working. That advice for founders, like the only thingthey've heard is sell benefits, not features, right? That's there it's all with the hips, but they have nocontext of what that means, where it comes from, why it, why people say it.
Anthony: They'lleither know that one or they'll know the one that says. don't buy a quarterinch drill. They buy the quarter inch hole. [00:12:00]So they take these two pieces completely out of context and apply them acrossthe board, and then you end up with this vague aspirational message that onlytalks about outcome statements, explains what the product is, and then they'revery confused customers don't want to buy a brand vision. When they go withtheir money, they're confused. Why? They're like, why don't they wanna buy myvision? Because the person on the other end is actually wants to buy a productto solve a problem that they have.
Zach: So you got amajor disconnect. Anthony, going back to the question you mentioned earlier,like pushing it back on us as to why we call it We're Not Marketers, isthat for the three of us that we're having conversations and being in a fewdifferent, like product marketing organizations, there's a few things wenotice.
Zach: Like one thatlike every organization seems to define product marketing in a different way.And at its core, like a lot of the stuff you share, like on content onLinkedIn, it's like product marketing boils down to two components, strategyand [00:13:00] execution. Going down to thesecond point is that like speaking to my experience, like specifically a lot ofproduct marketing was execution based of create this one pager, make this slidedeck.
Zach: Hey, like whyare we not getting enough leads? Product marketing, figure out how to get usmore leads. And in the mix of all these tasks thrown on your plate, you'retrying to sort through and like what Jason said in a previous call, likeprioritize. Which areas to tackle and you can't see above the weeds.
Zach: And you'reasking like, what is the strategy? And sometimes when you look to leaders say,Hey, lay out the strategy, they sometimes throw that question back on you, andthey're like What should the strategy be? You're like I don't know.Like I don't have no space in my calendar to figure that out because if Ipresent this strategy, like real story, here's the strategy.
Zach: I'm, we'regoing for the founders look at me. It's whoa. Why are we wasting our timebuilding this strategy out? You should just go out and be [00:14:00] executing it. In order to get this,I need your buy-in. I need to ensure that sales is on board. I need to ensurethat you're on board with it too. Because if you're not on board, I'm out thedoor and true story.
Zach: I was out thedoor because there's this misconception of product marketers of being like,Hey, like pro, like when you're brought in. A lot of organizations don't knowhow to use you, so you're stuck doing tasks that deviate from the focus, andthat's why we came up with We're Not Marketers. So I'm gonna pause rightthere, because like you said before, you've worked with a lot of differentorganizations.
Zach: How does thatreflect from what you've seen in like the work you've done with like earlystage founders?
Anthony: Yeah, so Ithink you bring up a lot of good points for me. it's actually, I would rather. Rather than saying we're not marketers,would elevate what a marketer is because when I was, coming up, I thoughtmarketing was knowing the right time to post a Facebook [00:15:00] ad.I don't really wanna learn marketing.
Anthony: And I was imagining all these tactics,right? Learning a collection of this is when you post on Instagram, or this iswhen you run an ad and this is how you set your things and these are the tipsand tricks about the titles and the subject lines. And I'm like, that type ofstuff was so boring to me. marketing at the core more about Figuring out which marketsto go after, how to reach them. Like the whole Go-to market concept, to me iscloser to the heart of what a marketer actually is. And product marketers, forwhatever reason, a lot of times they have a go-to market on the jobdescription, which you don't actually see sometimes on actual marketing jobs.So for me, I'm like the product marketer is closer to a mini CEO. Then a lot oftimes a head of marketing would be in the way that they're thinking about howdo I wanna position a product for which markets? How am I gonna get it to them?What do I wanna say when I like? To me, all [00:16:00]those pieces the fundamentalbuilding blocks of any business. So I'm like, rather than saying we're notmarketers, we don't just execute. I would try to go the opposite way andsay no. Marketing is, in my opinion, the most important function in a wholebusiness. And if you can, there's obviously companies where they use thesales team, like marketing. They have heavy outbound and they're going after abunch of groups at scale as much as you can with a team of SDRs and AEs andstuff. But for me, I'm like, especially with me and Rob's business, we docontent marketing, thought leadership around a very specific target market.We've positioned ourselves in a very specific way with very specific messagingvalue propositions, and so the sales aspect of it usually a 25 minute call.Where we walk through our process and answer a couple quick questions, and thenusually the people will buy. So of those two activities, which one's moreimportant [00:17:00] to us? It's the marketing,right? Like we're a hundred percent of our leads come inbound. We're not doingany outbound. And the sales is truly helping them understand the process,helping them through the buying journey and all that stuff. And it's wayless about going out and closing deals. It's the other way they're comingbecause of the power of marketing. So I, when I finally realized that thisdistinction. It felt like at the end of The Matrix when Neo can see theunderlying source code of everything, and he's I get it.
Anthony: Like I getwhy all these, that's when I finally understood the core fundamental principlesof marketing. I was like, oh, this is the cheat code to how businesses work.Why that one failed, why that one succeeded. So it's so powerful. Now I'm like,I, it's like a drug. I'm addicted. I can't, I don't care about anything else inlife anymore. I'm just, that's all I talk about with everyone I know. And I'mbringing all my family members on the journey. We're talking about messagingand value propositions, all my friends and they all getting roped into it
Zach: Y'all reallytalking about that on the at the family table.
Anthony: yeah. And weall joke around [00:18:00] about it and stuffand
Eric: Hey. Hey.
Eric: It's permeatedin my life too. Every time my fiance drags me to Alta. I'm looking at palletsand I'm like, why would I buy this over this? besides this one here, itdoesn't even tell me what it's Right. And so I totally feel with you on that,Anthony. It's it's starting to become a habit of mine.
Eric: I do have aquick question for you. So you're dealing with these early startups, theballpark answer, what percentage of them actually have any marketing teams onboard versus just Kind of founders still figuring it out.
Anthony: So we workwith usually seed to series A is our sweet spot. We'll get people earlier andwe'll get people. Later, but we publicly position around seed to series A. Sousually by then they have a marketer, maybe two. And so it's usually a smallteam, but almost all the products that we do, there is a marketing person.
Anthony: Sometimesit's a co-founder who is a marketer, but more often than not, [00:19:00] they'll have at least one marketer, if nottwo.
Eric: Okay. That'sgood context for me then. So follow up on that. When you do, you converse withthe, those marketers at some point? I don't.
Anthony: Yeah, we do.We we'll run our workshops. Usually we'll say, bring four to five differentpeople. So usually it's the founder, it's maybe a product person, sales person,a marketing person. We try to say, bring whoever. And we've seen all sorts ofmixes. Sometimes there'll be customer success operations.
Anthony: It's reallylike in that team who has a good sense of the markets that they're going afterin the product that they've created.
anthony-pierri_1_12-01-2023_130546:So
Anthony: Themarketers are on there. And the funniest, the best is when like, talk aboutjobs-to-be-done, right? People bring us in for two jobs. One of them is ourcompany is struggling to figure out how to best explain our product. We wannahire you guys to help us come in and just clear all the bad baggage we'vepicked up along the way, and just give us a really focused message. That'sjob-to-be-done. Number one job to be done. Number two, we get brought in by the[00:20:00] marketer they say, they don't saythis. They say it without saying it.
Anthony: They say,our founder is an idiot, and they will not listen to reason. Can you pleasecome in help talk some sense into them, those projects rarely go well.
Eric: So I askedthat, and I didn't want to lead the witness, but you walked right into what Iwas asking and I was gonna say, to answer your question, that's where I feellike I jumped in because my reality is a lot similar to what you justexperienced that. I've been on, marketing team about six, and currently I amthe marketing team, right? And find work that you do and the arguments you havethey resonate with me so much. 'cause I feel like they're the same type ofarguments. So I feel like that's why I jumped in here is because thoughtprocess and like, why isn't that the priority? Why isn't that the onlymarketing being done?
Eric: Like, why arewe sending out press [00:21:00] releases? Whyare we making all these white papers? When we actually are talking to ourtarget customers, they go to our homepage they say, I don't know what you do,So I think that's for my answer. Why? I'm doing the podcast
Anthony: Yeah. Yeah,that makes total sense.
Gab: And you saidsome stuff that was really interesting regarding like marketers are bring,bringing you in to convince a founder. But I'm just curious if you, what gapshave you saw in those use cases in terms of there's one solo or two marketingpeople and they are struggling with. of the messaging and why do you think thatthere's so much that bad of a messaging in B2B altogether?
Anthony: It's usuallybecause of one thing. To raise venture capital, you have to convince the VCsthat you have a billion dollar idea, and to have a billion dollar idea requiresa massive total addressable market. And total addressable markets are [00:22:00] actually a collection of many differentsub-markets. True billion dollar tams that aren't made up of a bunch ofdifferent submarkets incredibly rare. It's almost always you squint and itlooks like it's one big market, they're very different. a founder will tell astory to an investor to get the money, to get this company off the ground, thatthey're gonna get this big market. And that market might be like and gas,financial services, manufacturing, logistics. All in one market in their mindthat they're like, these are all one shared. Because at the end of the day, allthese industries struggle with this core cause problem that is solved by ourproduct. like in logistics, maybe the problem shows up, like the trucks aren'tgetting to the right place on time and they have the wrong info.
Anthony: And then infinancial services it's like something [00:23:00]related to investments or whatever. But they do the root cause analysis acrossall these industries and they're like, wait a minute. If you go five, 10 levelsdown, it's this problem of siloed data. the problem is present in all 10 ofthese industries. So if we can solve the problem for all 10 of theseindustries, it's a billion dollar market. So they tell that story to theinvestors, they convince the investors, and the investors are like, this isgreat. Here's 5 million bucks for your seed round. then they go out they I'mgonna message and market to all 10 of those industries at once. They say, Ineed to write a homepage that an oil and gas exec will get, that amanufacturing exec will get logistics exec, right? And so they end up with noneof those people would ever run in the same circles. They don't go to the samemeetings, the same conferences. They don't have the same fears and right?
Anthony: They're allcompletely different. But they market the core root cause problem that no oneis aware of [00:24:00] because no one did theroot cause analysis to figure it out. When in reality, marketing, you actuallyhave to speak to the surface level problem that they are aware of to get themlike connected, right? The surface-level problems of all 10 of those industriesare not shared. They're all completely different. So when we come in and wesay, okay, listen, your homepage. It's one set of words. not asalesperson. It's not gonna reposition your product differently depending onwho you're talking about.
Anthony: It's notgonna retell the story for each of these different CEOs or whoever you'retrying to bring to the page. It's just one set of words, and it has to speak toall of them. And these people don't have anything in common at the level thatthey would be aware of. So we always say. We don't think you should try todo all 10 at once. should do the more old school way of doing it, thebeachhead approach. go after one or the bowling pin approach, either of themetaphors, whichever one you like more the bowling pin, knock down the bowlingpin, number one, [00:25:00] which will give youfuel and ammo to knock down the next two, which will then give you the nextfour. But in their minds, that initial bowling pin is W writing off the nineother markets that make up the billion dollar tam in their mind, despite anyone of the nine on their own, is probably multi-billion dollar tam. Anyways, solike we were on a call with a guy and he was like, yeah, we've really narrowedit our ICP down.
Anthony: And we'relike, who's your ICP? he listed five different industries. And I'm like, eachof these industries, like the money in those industries is like a continent onthe planet, or at least a country, right? What if you just dominated one ofthose first? How big would you be?
Anthony: And they'relike, oh, we'd be worth hundreds of millions. And I'm like, how much are youmaking right now? And they're like yeah, we're doing a million ARR. And I'mlike, what if you just tried to get it from a million 10 million before jumpinga million to a billion? Maybe you can sequence your way there. But then theyjust point back to these crazy stories that have these, the Loom's and theCalendly [00:26:00] that exploded. And they sayNo, Loom didn't have to do that. Asana didn't have to do that. Why would wehave to do that? And then we back up and we say, Do you have those crazyviral growth loops in your product? how Calendly will spread you not onlyinternally, but to other companies just through the use of the pro? Do you havethat
Anthony: like
Anthony: No. Weneed, like a sales engineer has to come in, it's like a, it's like a six weekonboarding white glove to get them to, to the aha moment. And I'm like,okay, so how many marketing people do you have to execute these 10 marketingstrategies at once? Jeff, on the call. that's our marketing. we're likehow? Okay, so on Monday, Jeff's gonna call the oil and gas companies and set upa marketing account. And then Tuesday he's gonna do manufacturing. And thenWednesday, what are you thinking? And then we try to walk it out and we'relike, think of all the assets just to win one of those markets. All thespecific case studies, right? All the testimonials that you need to get thetalk tracks, the objections, all the iterations you have to do on your marketing,on your ads, that you run the AB testing and [00:27:00]stuff just for one of them, and you've only got one guy and you wanna go after10. So they can't separate. The vision of becoming the billion dollar company.It's like they are only thinking about the moment when they're in the garagecoming up with a cool idea, and then in the movie where it jumps ahead andthey're this giant, massive company, they're not thinking about
Gab: A montage.
Anthony: in the10-year period between those two moments. It's oh, do you remember when face,what did Facebook do? They did first Harvard, they did elite schools. they lethigh schoolers in, then they let all of America in. Then they started bringingin like European countries, and then they slowly exp and same with Amazon,right? Just books at the beginning. And they slowly started like all thebiggest, crazy success stories. Unless you have those incredible viralitygrowth through loops. They all did it that way. They all sequenced it.
Gab: That makes a lotof sense. And I, I understand now a little bit more why those startups aregoing with the approach of business innovation, disruption and ROI and all ofthat because they're trying to go after five different [00:28:00]industries that have almost nothing in common except big outcomes generaliststhat every company needs to do, make more money save costs, and all that.
Zach: I am just, I'mjust stuck on those questions that Anthony drilled in over here. He come inlike the Gordon Ramsey of B2B marketing,
Gab: So for theremaining time of the pod, where can people find you? Do you have anything topromote? Where do we go if we want to learn more about Anthony Pierri andFletch PMM?
Anthony: LinkedIn forsure. Anyone who, you know, if you wanna keep up with what we're doing, shootme a connect request. I accept basically everyone
Anthony: you canshoot me a dmm, I'll probably DM you. I dmm most people who add me, just beinglike, how'd you find us? And I almost, because I'm on the platform so often Isend it so quickly. I'll often be accused of being a bot, which I find verybecause I'm like, you added me and I sent you a nice message for adding me. Andthe first thing you do is accuse me of being [00:29:00]a bot. Like I did not add you. So if you add me, I'll probably message you andI'm probably gonna do it pretty quick 'cause I'm on LinkedIn all day and it'llbe fast.
Anthony: So please donot ask if I'm a bot, I'm not. nev it's our only go-to-market channel. And soif LinkedIn bans me for using a bot. We still have
Anthony: Rob's
Anthony: And then ifyou wanted to work with us in a consulting fashion, Fletch PMM, we listeverything. We talk about our entire process end to end, all the exactdeliverables, the timeline, the pricing, it's all ungated, it's all free, it'sall there. So I would do that and then if I was gonna promote a product, wehave a big notion, database all of our best practices, templates, everythingwe've really ever posted on LinkedIn, all of our frameworks and everything. Onegiant searchable, not notion database. It has 250, 300 entries in it, and wesell it for 50 bucks.
Anthony: So it's a,it's our, that's like our low barrier to entry resource for people who aretrying to get a good sense. And you can see what, we're just talkingpositioning. You can look at that category or if you're looking [00:30:00] at just homepage or mistakes to avoid,we've got all these different categories for it.
Gab: For 50 buckswith the amount of consulting you did. I'm I believe it's a steal, so
Anthony: Thanks.
Zach: You not gonnatell us about Good Hangs?
Anthony: Ah, promotethat as well. That is my my side project pop punk band, living out my my failedchildhood dreams of becoming a rock star, doing it now as an adult. And I liketo joke around that. It's
Anthony: I didn'tcome up with this, I saw this in like a TikTok or something, but when you'rein, like your teens and someone finds out you're in a band, they're like, oh,you're in a band. And then you're in your twenties, they're like, oh you're ina band. And then in your thirties they're like, in a band. it definitely hasbecome less cool.
Anthony: But,
Anthony: Yeah, me andmy friends are in a band called Good Hangs If you like early two thousands,throwback, pop, punk or emo music, you'll probably like us.
Zach: Hey. No, I tryto listen to it during a gym workout, man. But I wasn't feeling it. Only one Ifelt was the only dude pushups when I'm drunk. In the spirit of we're notmarketers, I gotta give you some unsolicited advice about. We know nothingabout your craft, [00:31:00] so I came up witha few song suggestions for you.
Zach: So you know,take it, leave it like maybe some inspiration for the band. Like first one Igot for you. Position that squat rack. Like when you in that gym, like yougotta feel the vibe. Second one, homepage, copycat. I like that example you metwith HubSpot, Salesforce. Bring a little bit of work into your fitness leadingto the next one.
Zach: Product marketfitness, , combine the best of birth of both worlds and have a good like mindand body too.
Zach: All in one. Allin one. I know. I got two more. Don't cut me off. Just, yeah, I got two morefor you all. All in one gym hero, like traps. All action right here. And ourlast one for you to bring it home.
Zach: Oops. Irepositioned that squat rack again.
Anthony:Unbelievable. That's wild. That's great. I love 'em. I'll pitch it. I'll pitchit to the guys. we'll
Anthony: what, how itgets taken.
Gab: Let know
Gab: and.
Anthony: For sure
Eric: I'm a little,I'm a little upset. [00:32:00] I just found outabout this band, because I was jamming it to some good Charlotte in Blink 180 2for like at least a 30 minute drive the other day.
Anthony: We'd fitright in that playlist.
Eric: I was gonna sayI should've known, I would've swapped that out real quick, but that's awesome.
Zach: You were veryquiet about it when you posted it yesterday. I was like, wait. I'm like, oh,the guitar makes sense now. Next to your name. I just thought you just put theguitar there just for , the sake
Anthony: sure, sure.
Anthony: That's
Anthony: why.
Zach: came around
Eric: All right, so
Eric: last
Eric: question foryou and then we'll let you go.
Eric: I think,
Eric: sO yesterday wespoke to Jason. You're gonna have to watch the pod or not to see if he decidedto change his opinion, but he came in saying, yes, product marketers aremarketers. Or not have changed his mind slightly.
Eric: What is youropinion as we leave the pod today? Anthony?
Anthony: I'm stillbullish on that, that product marketers, or marketers, I think they're thechief marketers of the early stage startup land.
Eric: I love
Eric: hearing
Zach: will take it.
Gab: Amazing. Awonderful episode. Antonio, thank you so much for your time and we're reallyexcited to get this going and to learn from you.
Anthony: [00:33:00] Awesome. Thanks so much for having me.Super fun.
Gab: Thank you forlistening to We're Not Marketers. If you like what you heard, please subscribe,review our podcast, and share this episode with other PMMs. Thanks again andsee you soon.