79% of product marketers don’t want to be a CMO.* This is one reason why Tamara Grominsky built PMM Camp. A community of over 150 product marketing leaders who want to build meaningful connections together. While, navigating career inroads beyond the CMO title.
The queen of hot takes sits down with the three misfits of We’re Not Marketers to share more behind this alarming stat. The short answer? Product marketers aren’t marketers. Tamara doesn’t stop there; she covers more on:
*Source: Product Marketing Alliance Global Briefing data
Why PMMs Aren't Marketers (And some shouldn't even be a CMO)
[00:00:00]
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:Welcome to the next episode of We're Not Marketers, with Zach Gab and Eric, wegotta give a grand introduction here to Tamara Grominsky here, founder of PMMCamp. Her credentials, her expertise speak for itself. The next 30 minutes isgonna give a, the TLDR, the deep dive on that.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:That's good. That was a great introduction.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:There's a spicy question that we always have to ask each guest. So I'm gonnapass over to Gab here to dish it out.
Gab: Yeah. Thank youZach.
Gab: So Tamara do youbelieve that product marketer are actually marketer? Why or why not?
Tamara: I [00:01:00] don't think that product marketing ismarketing,
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:and I feel like I have been saying this for a very long time. I can't takecredit for being like the first, but I will say for many years I have beensaying that product marketing is not? marketing
Tamara: and we shouldnot be CMOs.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:That's my like hot take on that. And a couple of reasons. Why do I think thatthere's components of marketing to the role? Of course, like I, of course, butthere's also product components to the role. There's business components to therole. There's tons of different components. And I think the great thing aboutproduct marketing is that it is its own unique function. If we were a marketer,we wouldn't need to be called a product marketer, so I could talk about this topicall day long, but feel very passionate about it.
Gab: I love the takealready. This is going to be a really great
Gab: So yeah you saidsomething that really catch my attention. You said you don't think productmarketers should be
Gab: CMOs and when weshared that [00:02:00] huge topic that pm m arenot marketers, some people said CMOs from product marketing are actually greatCMOs.
Gab: What's your takeon this? Why do you think PMM should not be CMOs Basically.
Tamara: Yeah, Itotally recognize that there could be an amazing CMO who is a product marketerwho has a product marketing background. I think my take is that it's not theobvious path to the c-suite for a product marketer. And I think that itactually limits the potential opportunity of product marketing, if you think ofit that way.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:So if I think about, like I've been in product marketing for over a decade, Ifeel old, but when I started. We were still trying to describe like, what theheck do we even do? Like, what is product marketing? What should we beresponsible for? And as when you're trying to describe something or make senseof something, you often anchor it in something that someone already knows.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:And so I think what happened was that we started to anchor product marketingwithin the context of marketing, right? And because it has the word marketing [00:03:00] in it. People just started to think Ibelong in marketing. I'm gonna sit in marketing. The C-level role that I wouldgo to is CMO. But I think that's just super limiting you.
Tamara: Most productmarketers don't have the skillset to be A CMO. They don't actually know demandgen, they don't know all of the other more technical parts of marketing. Andthey're so strategic that strategy could actually be used in a ton of otherroles, like a chief product officer role, a Chief Strategy officer, or even CEOI actually think
Tamara: That productmarketer should be considering how to get to the CEO seat more than anythingelse.
Track 1: What do youfeel, , on that same note in terms of reporting then, if you were to put themsomewhere where they had, you had to have a boss,
Track 1: , who's thatboss in your opinion?
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Yeah.
Tamara: So I haveopinions, but I also will caveat it by saying that like the context of thecompany does matter, right? But in an ideal world, if I was designing abusiness and I could design it [00:04:00]around a structure, I think would be ideal. I would have it Sit on its own. Soit wouldn't report into product, it wouldn't report into marketing.
Tamara: It wouldreport into either like a chief commercialization officer or a chief strategyofficer. And so when I was at Unbounce, this was actually what I had theopportunity to do, which was amazing. So when I joined Unbounce, I joined asthe head of product marketing and. I was blessed that the system was alreadyset up a little bit for me.
Tamara: There was ahead of product, a head of marketing, and then a like a CRO. And so I actuallygot to report into the Chief Revenue Officer and product marketing was carvedoff separate than marketing, the head of marketing and myself. We both reportedinto the CRO, but at least we were our own functions. But what happened wasthat we ended up having some friction between marketing or revenue and product,and we all agreed that one of the best ways to diffuse this tension would befor there to be a third party, a neutral and unbiased third party.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:And so when our CRO, she actually got promoted to the CEO spot, which wasamazing. [00:05:00] And so then there was anopportunity for me to become the CSO. So I took on the chief strategy officertitle. I removed myself from the revenue unit. So then we had a head ofproduct. Ahead of strategy, which was then managing lifecycle partnerships andproduct marketing, and then ahead of marketing.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:And we would have three strategic peers all being able to work together.
Track 1: Oh man, thatsounds like a dream layout there.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:, but tomorrow quick follow up question
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:so I'm curious with this, the unique setup that you spoke about at Unbounce,how did that solve the challenge or. Further clarify what good productmarketing fundamentals should looked when you were under, when you were leadingthat charge.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Yeah.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:that's a great question. We had to spend quite a bit of time, Making sure thatit was like a Venn diagram as opposed to like competing. So there were thingsthat all three of these functions did, right? Marketing product marketing. Butwe really focused in on, within this organization, with the goals that we hadand the talent that we had on those teams, what could we do? [00:06:00] So for my team. That meant we did customersegmentation, right? For the entire business. That meant that we did pricingand packaging, we did narrative and category creation. We did product launch,but from the highest level go-to market. So I'll give an example of this. So wewould work product marketers with the product team from ideation to surface, aninsight from the market or customers. We would do beta testing, we would managethose beta programs, test value props early. Then we would come up with astrategy for launch. Like, Hey, this is gonna be a Rolling Thunder launch, orWe're gonna couple these three tier three launches together to move this largenarrative forward, whatever it might be. We would brief it in basically to astrategic brief, like a go to market brief, and then the marketing team wouldtake it on entirely on their own. So they built the campaign ideation. They didall of the assets, all of the content, and my team just did a review of that.Like we were not the owners.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:We basically, once the positioning and messaging framework was [00:07:00] complete, we handed it off, which isdifferent, right?
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Some orgs, especially where PMM sits in marketing, they're the ones that areactually building the channel strategy. They're building out Bill of materialsthat you need for launch. And so in that way, we gave up a bit of campaigncontrol, I would say, because that team was best set to do that, and my teamwasn't.
Track 1: do you haveany advice for some of the leaner and meaner teams out there listening in?
Tamara: Honestly, Ithink at the end of the day it's about figuring out like what is your secretsauce? I like to talk a little bit about like unique value propositions. Likewe spend all of our time building pro value propositions for our products, butlike What are we great at? And the reality is like we have four awesome productmarketers on the call right now. All of us do completely different things andlike we're not all interchangeable, right?
Tamara: And so that'show I think about it is like if you're thinking about joining a Lean PMM teamor you're on a Lean PMM team, it's like what are the problems that you'rereally great at solving? [00:08:00]
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:And then what are the skills or tools that you use to solve those problems? Andhow can you solve those problems best in this organization? And if you do thatand you say actually, this organization doesn't need those problems solved,you're probably in the wrong spot, right? And it's time to move on to adifferent organization. Who does need those problems solved?
Gab: I really lovewhat you said about the fact that you control the high level, but then youtrust your team enough for them to do all of the campaign strategy. Becauseultimately this is the core of marketing.
Gab: If you're goodenough with specific channels, you should be able to take that direction thatthe product marketing team is pointing you towards and just do your best workwith it.
Gab: So I think thisis really interesting.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:, it makes their jobs more interesting too because as sometimes these channelowners, they just feel like they're order takers. Right. And it's, they're not,they're strategists in their own right. And so I know a lot of the feedback wegot from the setup was that they felt so empowered as channel owners andmarketers to actually build [00:09:00]strategy, not just execute on someone else's.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:So really quick, I'm gonna introduce a hot take. And this is not coming fromus, this is coming from your fellow partner crime, Jason Oakley. We had achance to talk with him and he spoke specifically around execution, and withina B2B SaaS startup of that. As a product marketer, you don't have the luxury ofbuilding outstretch.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:At some point the rubber has hit the road and you gotta execute. This is like achallenge for a lot of , product markers, based off everything you've sharedhere so far, do you disagree with your fellow partner crime
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:I disagree with Jason. I want that down. Different perspectives on this. Minebeing that I actually think that the word strategy is completely misused almostall the time.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:So
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:I talk a lot about this like strategy to execution spectrum, and from myperspective, you're not strategic or executional. You as a team and as a PMM,you are going to anchor yourself somewhere along the spectrum and [00:10:00] it's important to know what kind of roleyou want.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:There's some people who want to be On the Expeditional side, and there'snothing wrong with that. There's some people who wanna be on the strategicside. Also, nothing wrong with that's not like a better way of doing productmarketing. It's just a style of PMM. But what I advocate for is even if you'reexecuting, even if you're the only PMM, like let's take in a strategic,intentional approach to our work, which I think so often we do not do, and I'llgive an example. Like, let's think about you're a solo PMM or you're on a smallPMM team and you're being asked to optimize the pricing page, right? Maybe youwanna start tweaking the price point, or maybe you wanna start figuring outlike, are the features packaged in the right way? You wanna drive some moreexpansion or maybe more people to choose the middle package? So many people,and I know, 'cause I talk to them, so many people are like we're just gonnatest that price point, or we're gonna say we're gonna try 20% off monthlyinstead of a 10% off. If you get annual. But [00:11:00]my example of like, okay, what would strategic look like in this case? Why notrun a short survey to get an input to that so that you're not just using likeyour best guess? We can run a Max Diff feature preference survey and we can runa van we door that will take less than five days to run. Everyone has five daysto, I promise you, you have five days to do this. Otherwise you couldpotentially mess up the pricing page and it's like you can write the survey inan hour or two.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:There's templates out there. You can run it to customers, you can post it onLinkedIn, you can run a panel. Like it's so easy to get it out there. To me,that's a strategic approach to a task, and so what I'm not saying is you needto run a three month pricing study and you can't execute. It's like, how do wemarry both of those philosophies together?
Track 1: Shamelessplug here. If some of our listeners don't know what she was just referring to,then you gotta sign up for the march course on ready for launch. Just FYI.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Thank you.
Track 1: Learn allabout it in less than six weeks, I promise [00:12:00]you.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Right.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:So then another clarifying question. Let's say something like like, a listenerhears this and they're like, Tamara you're speaking a fairytale.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:You're speaking as if Santa Claus is real. I'm curious, like one challenge,like a lot of product marketers in this space may face is. That leadershipbuy-in to say like, this is the strategy forward, this is what we need to do,and that they may come back and say we need this done now.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:We don't have time for that strategy.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:What are some best practices that someone in that situation can take to helpget that, buy-in and build that trust with leadership stakeholders?
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Yeah, this is actually a very important question. It literally, this questioncame up in a community event earlier today in PMM camp, and it was a senior PMMas well. Like this doesn't just happen to, more junior entry level ics. Theadvice we gave that person and the, and how I would tackle this and havetackled it is. A couple fold. First of all, you need to be confident in yourstrategy and what you're asking for. [00:13:00]I think sometimes people go into these situations thinking that it's gonna getshot down. They're never gonna gimme the time, budget, resources to do it. Theymust know better than me if they're already saying no.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:And it's like, no, you are the subject matter expert. Expert in your role. Solike have confidence in whatever recommendation you are bringing to the table.The second one is demonstrate why this matters. So bring with you examples ofother companies, other teams that have done this. Successfully. We try to shareexamples in the course.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:In my newsletter I share examples. Jason shares examples every week. It's like,when have there been times where companies have been able to execute? Likewe'll keep using the pricing example of, wow, here's five different companiesthat did a Max Diff feature preference. Here were the results that they got.And actually show like the examples, right? And you can see. See, when you seea Max Diff, like a feature value matrix, it's so powerful. And so maybe theleadership just isn't even able to visualize what the output or outcome wouldbe, right? So show [00:14:00] why it's beenimportant and helped others, and then be flexible on the approach. I thinkpresent your ask. If they say, absolutely not, we don't have time for that.Then ask what would be possible? Can, if I don't have five days to do this, canI have three days for this? I think often we live in this black, white, yes, noworld, and that's not the case at all. if You still get a no, absolutely not.Sometimes I will advocate for doing it their way and your way at the same time,if. Change the pricing page then if they want to. But what's preventing youfrom doing your own max diff survey? Right. You have access to a survey tool,you have access to customers. You don't even have to do it on behalf of thecompany.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:You can do it saying like, Hey, I'm interested in this, or, I work at thiscompany. This isn't for them, but just doing my own research. And then come tothe table with what you found, especially if it's different than, what theywere trying to force you to do.
Gab: That's great. Ifeel like it's a [00:15:00] bit like the trickof yes, but.
Gab: I'm able to goin that direction and ultimately it's your own initiative and it doesn't looklike you took the company resources to do it.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:exactly.
Track 1: Man,
Track 1: how Tamaraoperates. I wanna work under her. Just be like, yeah. I'm gonna tell you No,but go do it on the side and let me know what you get.
Track 1: That'sawesome. No, I love that. And I wanted to piggyback on something that you said,if you can somehow tie it to some of, like whoever you're trying to presentthis to, those companies that you go get examples of if it's one of theirfavorite companies, even
Track 1: better fuelfor the fire there.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Or if there's like a thought leader they follow and superrespect. Like you have to cater to your audience, right? Absolutely.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:Like, I'm curious tomorrow is because , I feel like the.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:The perspective or the outside looking perspective of product marketers are,they are the wordsmiths, they are the ones that are supposed to write the copy.How is a product marketer supposed to [00:16:00]approach pricing? Like, where do you start if traditionally feels like a blackbox for many?
Tamara: I just like,I disagree that product marketers are wordsmith. I don't think they are. Ithink that's called a copywriter. You know what I mean? Let's assume you're nota solo marketer, not even a solo PMM but the only marketing hire, let's assumethere's at least four or five people on a team. If you're a product marketer,you should not be writing copy. I feel very strongly about this. I, when I runmy PMM teams do not write copy because that's not our skill. They can't be goodat ICP work and pricing and product strategy and copywriting. We should be goodat storytelling and narrative, but like I believe the product marketers arestorytellers.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:I think that's probably the best word we could use to describe them. And whatdoes it take to tell a good story? It takes data. It takes insights. It's notjust about the words you use. The words you use are like the icing on the cake.It's like, what are the layers that we're using to [00:17:00]build that cake? anD that's actually where we should be refining our skillset.I do recognize that some people say that. I just read a LinkedIn post earliertoday that said something along those lines, and I like, literally felt myheartbeat. I was, that's not true. That's doing us a disservice,
Track 1: yeah. And Ilook at it too, like storytelling isn't necessarily the words you put on apage, right? It's not necessarily putting pen to paper or typing away at akeyboard.
Track 1: anD I thinkthat's a misconception, right? The story is not necessarily just a writtenword.
Track 1: It's a lotmore than that.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:The story is like the plot, right? So what is going to evolve? What are themoments of tension that we're gonna introduce to the story? How are we going toease that tension? It's everything. Who are the characters that are playing inthe story, right? thE characters are like your ICP, but also your competitors.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:We could go on with this metaphor forever, but actually sitting down to writethe story, that's not our job. And like, [00:18:00]if you think about it, that's when we hand off, like we have this brief, that'swhat is the story? Who's involved? Where do we want it to end? How much are wegonna charge for the story? All of that, right?
Gab: If pmms are goodat copywriting, it's a pitfall because then they are asking us to write thecopy. They are asking us to help on the website headline, the sales deck, andall of that. So we're following under execution instead of strategy, and wehave less guardrails of just making sure that everything work correctly is wellcoordinated, and ultimately has the heart of how can we create emotion withthat story Basically.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Totally like copywriting is a craft and so is product marketing, and you can'tbe exceptional at two crafts really, and it's not because I think thatcopywriting is less important than product marketing. I think it's equallyimportant, which is why it needs its own function, right?
Gab: A hundredpercent.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Yeah.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:One challenge like tomorrow is that for, I feel like if you're a solo productmarketer or like part of a small product marketing team, is that.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:How do you define product [00:19:00] marketingwithin an organization? Because many instances you're gonna have sales saying,I need this one pager., you may have executive leadership, CEO say, Hey, weneed some copywriting on this website.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:So when you, so for anyone that's in this similar situation, is your definitionof product marketing and then how do you influence that definition across keystakeholders?
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Yeah, I think that product marketing needs a definition at each organization.Like there isn't One blanket one. Like for me, product marketing is responsiblefor identifying who are your best customers and the markets and spaces that youshould be playing in Identifying how to price, package and position value andthen bring recurring value to customers.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:That's product marketing for me. The skills and like tactics under that, wecould argue that copywriting could fit under that or not. You know what I mean?There's different worlds, right? You need to assess for yourself what kind ofproduct marketer you wanna be, and within what type of a company. Like, I wouldnot be a [00:20:00] solo PMN because I wouldhave to spend too much of my time on tasks that are not my zone of genius, butthere's other people who excel in that area, right? And so for my experience,most of my teams have been at like Later stage startups to early scale upswhere we've had the luxury of having product marketing and some other marketersthat said, like even at Kajabi, fairly large scale up we had six productmarketers.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:There's definitely times where we wrote our own Pendo like. I'm not saying,we're saying, oh, we can't help out. Like we're team players and there's timeswhere, you know, especially if, something comes up today and we want it to goout tomorrow, yeah, we're gonna chip in and we're gonna like write the email,we'll write the Pendo.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:But that's different than saying I have a tier one product launch coming out,two months from now and I'm gonna write all of my own collateral website copy.And so it's not to say. Oh, we're too good for that, or that's not what we do.It's like how do we set boundaries so we can each do our best work? But then ofcourse, at the end of the day, we're a team [00:21:00]and we all need to chip in. You know that. So that's how I think about it. Ithink if you wanna set yourself up for success, whether you're joining a newrole or you're in a role right now, it's just having those conversations andsetting those boundaries like. In interviews, I'm super clear on what do youexpect to be doing with your day? Like I'll ask when I'm hiring pmms on myteam, how much of your day do you wanna spend doing this? What brings you joy?And so you should already be aligned on this with your stakeholders. And wetalk a lot about marketing, but honestly, sometimes I find that actually moreof the overlap can even happen with product.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:But this is the exact conversation we also need to be having with them.
Track 1: When I startcreating my PMM superhero team, I'm gonna need to pick, superpower components.So tomorrow, what's your superpower
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Oh, that's such a good one. I think my superpower, I'm gonna have two. I'mgonna have like a soft skill and a hard skill. One. My my superpower really isaround helping companies identify their best customers. [00:22:00] I'm just like, this is something I excel at. Iunderstand it. I can help others get on board with it.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:I can do it really quickly. And I'm able to change like the whole companystrategy because of that. Right. But I would say my more like soft skill thatpeople tell me. So I once sent out this survey at Unbound and I was like,what's my value to you? Just try to understand from everyone and every singleperson without knowing what everyone else said, wrote the same response, whichwas like, you are The person in the room that connects all the dots. And so Ithink that's like my soft skill superpower as a product marketer.
Track 1: The puzzleput together. I
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Exactly.
Track 1: I.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:the puzzler.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:I'm gonna ask you a question and then disclaimer for everyone who's listening.This was not on the Prep doc. This is actually a talk that you shared in aproduct marketing festival back in San Francisco. And you spoke a little bitabout category
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:creation. And sometimes Founders may have this fallacy of being like, okay, I'ma 50 person startup, but we're like Salesforce, [00:23:00]let's do what Salesforce did. Like, let's like copy and paste our go to market.that seems like a crash and burn weight to category creation.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:So like what is your approach to category creation? Like what? Like what arethe proper expectations that leadership should have around category creation?That is like, hey, like we need to do what's unique to us. You can't just copyand paste what another organization did and half the time expect the sameresults.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Yeah, I always like to say that almost no one should be building a category.Right. People think it's something easy and that's gonna be like this quickfix. It's not you should build a category not because someone else is doing itor because it was successful for someone else, but because you fundamentallyview the world different than everyone else. Right. You believe that the worldis different, or you believe that there's a fundamentally different way tosolve a problem that already exists. Those are the only two reasons why youshould ever consider building a category. If you're just thinking I could dothis different. So there's a concept of like, you wanna be different [00:24:00] rather than like, be better. That'simportant, but not just Doing something different, that's not enough. And soThere actually should be no other competitors in that case, right? Because ifyou have another competitor, then you're not building a category.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:I am gonna save that question for Andy later. I'm gonna tell, I'm gonna tellhim. You just said like no competitors. I'm like, Hey Andy. This is what Tamarajust told us. So
Track 1: I know youcan't pull my ready for launch team apart. I need.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:To clarify a question when we asked Jason this in our last episode, is that forproduct marketers that are interviewing for roles for the next roles oropportunities, you mentioned that there's a few things that you should beassessing for to find the right fit organization.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:What are your go-to questions when you're evaluating like a product, marketingrole or organization that be the right fit for you?
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Yeah. A couple, but one that I love to ask is how do you make [00:25:00] decisions? I know that seems reallygeneral, but most people don't have like a decision making matrix or frameworkand that is what often leads to chaos versus a great answer in that case wouldbe like we always assign an accountable and that person gets the final say,although we like discuss it as a group to get buy-in or so, and so always getsthe final like. The companies that have clarity on decision making, know howthey make decisions, almost everyone else is like, we empower the best personto make it. Or it depends, and personally, I
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:have found that it's very difficult to be a successful product marketer in thattype of an organization.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:maybe not the answer you're expecting, but that would be my hot tip,
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:Oh no, that's that's the answer we needed.
Track 1: All right.
Track 1: Then, Ms.Tamara, thank you very much for your time today joining us on. We're Notmarketers. I don't know how, I didn't have you in my [00:26:00]network before, so now I can fangirl over you on LinkedIn.
Track 1: But how elsecan our find you and get the same type of knowledge that we're getting heretoday?
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Yeah, so the best way is LinkedIn. I'm there every day, whether I wanna be ornot. Posting all kinds of stuff about product marketing. Also my journey,building my own business. And then I have a newsletter. My business is calledPMM Camp. It helps take strategy and apply it in practical ways with a focus onproduct marketing leaders. I. So those kind of mid-level and above. So I have anewsletter that goes out every Sunday, a best to be enjoyed over a cup ofcoffee. And then I also have a private community and I do coaching one-on-oneas well as of course the courses that I have with the guys.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:That next course cohort is coming up in March, correct?
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Yeah, it's at the end of March called Ready for Launch and it's basically likethe pmms Guide to Product launch. So we had Eric in the first one, which wasamazing. And one of my favorite things about the course is that you actuallyget to learn from three experts. So it's not just like [00:27:00]one perspective, Andy, Jason, and I all have unique skills and perspectivesthat we bring to it, and so it's quite comprehensive.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:But you also get a taste of what if I am a solo PMM? Then Jason can talk alittle bit about that. Or what, if I do have space to, build a bit more of astrategic plan ahead of time? Then I can talk a little bit more about that.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:what, if you have competitors, then Andy can come
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Exactly
Track 1: Yeah, andagain, the ready for launch course was fricking sweet.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Yeah, it's a live course, so we have a lot of fun. It's like this with, 30other product marketers, and it's a good time.
Track 1: And that'shosted on Maven, correct.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Wow. We used Maven, which was a really great experience actually.
Gab: Amazing.
Gab: Great. It wasawesome, Tamara. Thank you very much for your insight and for agreeing with usas well with the spicy the spicy tape basically.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:And giving additional layers for many of us to consider here.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:absolutely. And I'm gonna [00:28:00] see Gab inJanuary in Quebec.
Gab: Exactly. Yeah.We're going to get a coffee in the old city. So excited about that.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Me
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:too.
zach---he-him-_1_12-14-2023_125009:hell
Track 1: Looks likeI'm going to Quebec in January.
tamara-grominsky_1_12-14-2023_125009:Am I hearing that we're doing a meetup in Quebec City in January?
Gab: Oh, I know tons.