How competitive intel makes B2B product marketing easier

[00:00:00]

Track 1: All right.Hello everybody for another episode of We're Not Marketers Today, we've got avery special guest who's near and dear to my heart, Mr. Andy McCotter-Bicknell.And I'll be honest with you, I'd say for about going on two years now he's beenone of the biggest voices in my life, especially on LinkedIn.

Track 1: The value hebrings to the competitive community every day. Both within his own work andwhat he's doing. And healthy competition has really brought me up quite a fewlevels over the last two years. If you're not familiar with Andy's currentlyworking at Apollo.io, he's with, used to [00:01:00]be with ClickUp right before that, and before that came from ZoomInfo.

Track 1: Enough ofcoming from me. Andy, let's give you the mic and give you some color on whatyou're doing right now and where people can find you.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Yeah. Dude, thank you so much. That was a, that was such a nice intro. You'vebeen such an awesome guy to get to know over the past couple of years you'vebeen in a few different. courses for competitive intel and ready for launch. Sothe one that we did with Jason Oakley and Tamara Grominsky and you've obviouslybeen super vocal and healthy competition, so I appreciate you. Yeah heyeveryone. I'm Andy. Eric pretty much did the whole intro bit. I'm at apollo.ionow leading competitive intel there. And then I also lead or moderate acommunity called Healthy Competition. It's for product marketers andcompetitive intel practitioners. And so we just hang out in there and. Sharetips and tricks, how to win and build really cool competitive intel programs.

Track 1: Awesome.Awesome. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna pry a little bit deeper because if you'rewatching by video, you might see there's a drum set back there. And [00:02:00] I've got just the general question, Andy,what's that all about and why is it in.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Yeah, I do play drums and it's in my background because this was the, so I livein an apartment and I. Got two bedrooms and this is the den that I'm in rightnow. And it used to just be like where I had my drum kit and it was like juststorage and all that kind of stuff. And I used to share my Like the guest roomwith my wife for our for like our office. And we quickly realized after sharingthat for, a few, probably close to a year, we were like, Hey, we shouldprobably I speak really loudly when I'm in meetings and she does, she's not inas many meetings and so it can be pretty distracting..

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:So I was like, all right, I'm gonna. I'm gonna build out the den and and makeit my own. And so number one it just looks nice in the background. I like thecolor, the finish of the drum kit, so that's nice. Number two, it's aconversation starter. People usually ask about the drum kit, and then I cantalk about music with folks.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:But yeah, I do also play the drums, and so it's not just for decoration, but I [00:03:00] play drums like pretty much my entire lifeat this point. Yeah, so that's the story behind the kit.

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:We got our

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:second musician on the pod.

Track 1: my, what wasthat, Zach?

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:We said that's our second musician on the pod.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Oh,

Track 1: yeah, you'reright. Did you know Anthony Pierri is in a band?

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Yeah. Yeah. We play we play similar styles of music. I I gotta see if he wantsto do something for sure. He's like legit though. He's legit though. If you goto he posted about some of the stats his band has gotten on spot.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:He's like a real, he's like a real, band. Yeah.

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:no, his.

​

gab_1_12-15-2023_124029:solid.

Track 1: I thoughtlike all of your competitive excellence came, like you just go . Drumming awayand it just oozes out of you. That's your kind of creative spirit. I'm glad tohear the full story behind this and we've got a very important question. Welike to ask every single one of our guests, and we like to let Gab do thehonors because he does have the [00:04:00]silkiest, smoothest voice out of all three of us.

Track 1: So take itaway, gab.

Are product marketing actually marketers?

gab_1_12-15-2023_124029:Thank you. I'm trying to practice my voice every night, just making sure that Ican ask this question correctly. But prior, ,prior to asking it, I just want tosay that you're the third guest of the Ready For Launch team. We've got Jason,we've got Tamara. So really excited to get your point of view on this.

gab_1_12-15-2023_124029:But Andy are product marketers, actually marketers, why or why not?

Track 1: And beforeyou answer this and before you answer this, your cohort group is split 50-50right now. So you are the deciding vote. You are the deciding vote on ready forlaunch.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:wow.

Track 1: So I, beforeyou answer, I'm adding more weight to this

gab_1_12-15-2023_124029:we're.

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:Not marketers exclusive.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Oh my God. I, that I didn't actually, I was gonna ask you who has said no tothis? But Okay. Yeah, no, I, I think, yes, absolutely. And to me this is likeone of those like existential questions where it's in my head it's obvious, butwas it who was that?

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:I think Jason [00:05:00] said they were we weremarketers, but Tamara says no.

Track 1: says,absolutely

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Really? Oh, that's hilarious. Oh, that's all. Okay. I got, I can't wait tolisten to that. Yeah I think we are, I, maybe, I don't know like what marketingis, or maybe, I don't know what product marketing is if I, yeah. I shouldn't beleading in that cohort. I I'm out here should I even be on this podcast rightnow? Okay. Got it. All right. All right. Yeah. I think, yes, I think yes.

Track 1: right, thengive us your why.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:I, when I think of marketing, I, when, like back in school it was all about,like the four Ps of marketing, right? And I probably can't even remember, whatwas it? It's like promotion, price, product,

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:place. Place. Yeah. And we don't, we do that as product marketers. We and we,I, at least I, write copy. I the only thing that's not really marketing that Ido is more the enablement piece and like the project [00:06:00]management side of things. But everything else I feel like is rooted in somesort of marketing Capacity. And so that, yeah I wish I had a more A moreinteresting answer. It's just when I went to school that's this is and I'mdoing the stuff that ki that pretty much I expected would be happening. Andlike when I went to school, it was a marketing degree. And the application's alittle bit different. You never really do the exact thing that you think youwould do in school. But in either case, yeah, I would say yes. Yeah.

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:So it sounds like you have two components of what both Jason and what Tamarasaid in prior, and I'm gonna call out each one. Jason's piece, he calls out, hesaid the four fundamentals of product marketing as to why it's part ofmarketing is like research, positioning, the launch and enablement.

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:So he would even say what you're, the work you do falls in that marketing pieceTamara will say, this is why. Product marketers, is that the strategy? And wesee a lot of the work you [00:07:00] do todayand really evangelizing and showing how to build strategy with competitiveintel. So a follow up specifically with competitive intel.

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:One challenge with product marketers in a B2B space is that if you're ageneralist, you're doing a little bit of everything, and that means that maymean that you're getting boxed out of that go to market, that of influencing goto market. How has being a specialist with competitive intel function withinproduct market made it easier or harder in influencing a broader companyobjective or just a broader strategy at within the organization?

What is easier: being a generalist PMM or a specialist like in CI?

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:That's a good question. It, it depends. It's, it depends on the company and itdepends on yeah, it depends on how, what everyone else thinks of competitiveintel. Like if the product team is really concerned and understands theimportance of what competitors are doing and They can put that against whatthey know customers are looking for, prospects are expecting. That [00:08:00] makes it really easy to quote unquote,like influence the product roadmap. 'cause they're, they understand theimportance of it. Same with sales. If sales is running into a lot ofcompetitors. in their deals, then they're probably going to be more interestedin understanding, from a competitive perspective, what, how do we win?

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:How do we what, like how are we differentiated? What are the things that we cando better or different or whatever than the competitor. it's funny too I amjust thinking more about this like product marketing to marketers question. I'mthinking like, I think strategy I. It just because something like is strategydoesn't mean that it's not marketing. At CMOs, like they, they're verystrategic people and they're by, by their title. They are marketers. Same withlike VPs. Usually like the higher up you go you're being a bit more strategic.You have to be thinking that way in order to be like leading the organizationthrough, you're thinking like quarters ahead, years ahead [00:09:00] in order to make sure that The companystays like differentiated and top of mind and at the forefront, the brand isreally strong. And I mean it's, I'm not saying that VPs can't ever get liketactical or anything like that, but that's the only like thing I'm thinkingabout as it relates to being strategic. But that's the other thing too.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Yeah, you do have to flex those muscles as A generalist and as an IC in orderto try to get, promoted and try to get more visibility. And that's usually,when you start getting a bit more strategic. I've also found that helps bringmore attention to like your competitive program and the way that you enablethings. Just because usually when people see that you're putting more emphasison a specific area. Of a function that maybe doesn't get as much attention ingeneral, like competitive intel. In most organizations that I've worked at, itwasn't a formal function before I started, and so when they see the work thatyou're putting in and how you're thinking [00:10:00]strategically about that function and how it's important, you're educatingeveryone.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:That's something that also like It kinda like wakes people up a little bit moreand flexes a different side of their brain. And so that's also been a way ofquote unquote like influencing GTM is like creating something that wasn't therebefore and helping other people understand oh, this is another like way ofthinking to help improve whatever it is that they're doing.

gab_1_12-15-2023_124029:I love what you just said about the fact that it wasn't initially important.Before you came into the role, they didn't necessarily have one specific CIperson. And just by seeing the way you were acting and having those guardrailsand those ideology and just thinking about stuff, make them realize that, hey,this isn't something we can just put on the back burner. And this is bringingme to, to a specific question. Do you think it's easier technically oncecompanies understand the need of competitive intelligence, is it easier to belike the CI guy than the PMM?

Is it easier being in competitive intelligence than product marketing?

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:For, for [00:11:00] me it is because I like itso much. it, it depends. Some people don't like it, some people like it. I've,for me, it, yeah, I and I don't know if it's because. I love like the drama ofCI's a I love like reality tv, I love like hearing like what other people aresaying about, I love all that stuff.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:How can you not like it? It keeps things interesting. No, but really I lovehearing like I. What are other people saying about our company or our product?Oh, and then what did we say back? Like when we heard that. Ooh. And like it'sthe little like kid inside of me that like, almost like a guilty pleasure kindof a thing.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:If you ever watch The Kardashians or 90 Day Fiance, stuff like that, likereality tv, like it, you can say that influenced or plays a part in my lovefor. CI and then help, once you see the whole spectrum of what they're saying,what we are saying, what the truth is, and how we how they might mask that,and, once you can [00:12:00] get that wholepicture, then you can get, again, really strategic and you can put togetherlike a better kind of way of positioning and you can help other people sharethat message. And you and that can be applied in so many different ways insales, in product, in marketing, and CI is. I feel like really like the, is inthe best area to touch all of those groups. Product marketing it depends on,again, the company. Like you, you could argue that product marketers that arejust focused on like launches and messaging and whatnot, they might touch thosesame departments as well. Yeah, I don't know, maybe it's just like the subjectmatter that really gets me excited. And whenever I've done product marketing,it's been a little more project management than I would prefer in my day today. And ci, it's. I feel like I'm a little bit more on my own trying to puttogether my own, like hypothesis. I can do [00:13:00]my own research and then I can share my findings and then can really bring itlike into a discussion. But then if I am looped into a launch, I'm not reallylike owning the launch. I'm just contributing to it. And so that's at least mypreference and like how I've found CI to be a little bit easier.

gab_1_12-15-2023_124029:Nice. Love the, love, the reference to reality tv and I didn't understand it,especially with with, I think in the past few months with ZoomInfo and Apollo,

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Oh yeah.

gab_1_12-15-2023_124029:the little Yeah.

gab_1_12-15-2023_124029:that, that was real

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Yeah. It's like you can't look away come on. Exactly. So entertaining. Yeah.

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:Yeah.

gab_1_12-15-2023_124029:Yeah,

Does category creation matter in competitive intelligence?

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:So I'm gonna, we're gonna, I'm gonna dive deeper into that topic and let's usethat, let's use that reality tv. Piece for this portion of the conversation wehad Tamara on yesterday, Andy, and she was talking a little bit about categorycreation. One quote she said, is that the purpose?

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:You wanna be so good at ca creating a category that you have no competitors.Let's say that, hey, like Kim Kardashian, the Kardashians, like [00:14:00] reality TV experts will argue and say, yo,like the Kardashians have no competitors because they really changed thereality TV landscape. Would you agree with what Tamara has said?

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:That if you create a category that there's a less of an emphasis on comp oncompetition and that may not be as needed in those situations. Curious to getyour POV on that.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Yeah, that's a good question. I've never been a. Of a company that's like trulygone, the category creation route. We've always, dabbled in a differentiatedway of saying oh, we're not just. Playing in this one category we're playing inlike these other ones too. That's the one consistent thing with all thecompanies that I've worked at. It's not, it's never just like one categorythat's like a consolidation, like all in one type of a play. And more recentlywith Clickup and Apollo, they've been really leaning into it's, they're almostlike. [00:15:00] Older, like more maturecategories that have stood the test of time, but then they're coming in andchanging people's perspectives on those categories.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:So click up with project management, apollo with sales intelligence or salesexecution, whatever you wanna call it. So I, I wish I could give a little bitmore experience to that whole do you think about competitors? As often whenyou're creating categories. If you read play bigger or anything like that, thenthe answer would probably be no.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:You you wouldn't think as much about competitors. But at the end of the day,you also do need to consider what the alternatives are when you're building acategory because you need to know where you're gonna be. Going left whereeveryone else is going, right? At the end of the day, even though you might notbe thinking about Hey, are competitors doing A, B, or C, you still need tounderstand what does the audience think of these types of solutions or thistype of category or these types of products. What do they typically use? Why dothey use them? And then you have to find a way of [00:16:00]pivoting in a way that, makes you significantly different than those companies.So to answer your question, it's like a little bit of yes. It's a little bit ofno. Like I, I would assume that you would be trying to do your own thing onlike a day-to-day basis of going to market.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:But like before you establish that category, you have to have a pretty goodunderstanding of, of who you're up against most consistently and like what thestatus quo is.

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:So not a focus up, but have it on your periphery is similar to driving a car.Make a lane change. Look at a side. Ah.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:yeah. I would say like that whoever, whoever, like the CEO or like theleadership team, they have to understand like who, they, and I'm sure they doevery C they're crazy. Competitive. Competitive. Like I've never really met aleader who like doesn't wanna win You know what I mean?

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:They just like, they, so they know they are the original CI person. Like theyunderstand like what the landscape, they're the people who are usually likeidentifying this [00:17:00] company as oh, thisis like a huge opportunity for us. And so yeah, like they understand it in thevery beginning. They have to continue to have an understanding of what thestatus quo is, and that usually probably would fall under like more customer researchthan probably competitive research. But then, yeah, in a more of a day-to-Day,they're probably not thinking as much of Hey, what's competitor a thi doingright now? What are what is what are some of these product launches lookingthey're probably not doing as much of that as someone that like, like a Clickupor an Apollo.

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:Are there ? Instances where you feel founders are focusing on the wrongcompetitors. Let's say that I'm leading, walking towards and understand I'mgonna go after Salesforce.

Biggest mistakes you can make on competitive intel

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Huh? Yeah, it's not usually as, even though I love joking about that it's likethe thing that I have seen most consistently is founders or leaders, like wewill have an idea of who the competitor is. And then that won't change foryears. Like they'll, it, I think it [00:18:00]might have to do with like, when they started and you typically do right?

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Some sort of competitive analysis when you first start and you try tounderstand, okay, who are we up against? But then the thing with competitiveanalysis at a lot of companies, again, because they don't have a dedicated CIperson, it's becoming more common. But for a lot of companies they don't, theywon't do another analysis for a really long time and they lose track of whattheir landscape looks like and things are just moving so quickly these days.Competitors like are going out of business, new ones are coming in and like itjust changes all the time. And so what I've seen actually most frequently isleaders still hanging onto some of the old competitors that maybe were relevantlike four or five years ago. They don't really have a firm grasp on who'scoming up and like the ones that are like the competitors of tomorrow, thatkind of a thing. So that, that, yeah, that's how I see it.

Track 1: Nice. [00:19:00] Very nice. Andy, I think the next step iswe gotta get you in a company for category creation and let you wiggle aroundwith that

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:I don't know.

Track 1: see what Dantrouble you can get into.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:I don't know. Yeah, I, the, it's funny, like I, whenever I whenever I readstuff on category creator I'm always like, yeah, like that's, that totallymakes sense. Of course let's go like I love play bigger just like more thanjust as much as anyone else. And there's a, in category parts, it's all greatstuff.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:I talked with Christopher Lockhead on my podcast and he's just such a A great,educational, charismatic voice on category creation. I love the way he thinks,and once you start understanding the concept, you can see it everywhere. Itwould definitely be a challenge for me, especially as I've been so ingrainedin, competitive intel and most of my career at this point has been not that.It's been about, almost like the opposite. But there's definitely some elementsto [00:20:00] category creation that I thinkanybody can. Can take just like the importance of being different, not alwaysbetter, and putting yourself like in, in like your own kind of area as likewhen you look at a typical G two grid, like it's just a cluster of a bunch ofdifferent logos.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:That's how I think about competing. Some it's a very real thing. You're justlike one in the crowd. And in some cases, like even if it, if you're maybe notAnd like as high of a quality of a product. And like that grid, it might stillbe like really important to be really well known so that people like know toreach out to you for a specific thing.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:I don't know, I'm just I'm just like thinking to like the first things thatcome to my mind as it comes to like category creation and competing. But inother case it would be hard, but it might be fun. Yeah. Who knows?

Track 1: Nice. We'lllet you, we'll let you do all the good work we know you're gonna do at Apollobefore we move you on

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I just start, I'm like two months in at Apollo so gimmea break.

Track 1: [00:21:00] Don't worry. We'll let you root there fora while. But so I got another question for you and I wanna preface it bysaying, you do excellent work. You've done it for multiple companies and Ithink it's very clear that you've earned the respect of a lot of people in ourindustry. And respect is the word I want to.

Track 1: Really wantto hone in on here. And if you look at our podcast, we try to hook you in witha very spicy take, right? But the real substance of what we're trying to do ismake sure that people in our shoes don't feel like misfits, and they earn thatrespect that I think you've commanded from at least your last three places.

Track 1: So do youhave any practical advice for us here as well as. The folks who wanna listen inon how you can come in and earn that respect and make sure that it's not just,a quick winded thing and it lasts and make sure that it's part of your legacy.

How to command respect as a PMM

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:There's a couple of pieces to this. There's like the [00:22:00]respect of like peers and like people on LinkedIn, that kind of a thing. Thenthere's also like the respect of The company that you work for. And that's avery important thing to, to get right, because you could be doing like all thethought leader LinkedIn type stuff, but then really pissing off a bunch ofpeople, like actually in your company. And it could be a totally shallow thing.Like I've heard a lot about that. And that's something that you definitely haveto, be aware of. You gotta walk the walk, you can't just talk the talk kind ofa thing. And for me it started with the. Just trying to do my job as the, asbest as I could, trying to be as visible and upfront with other like teams andcoworkers trying to lend a hand as often as possible.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:I'm not gonna say anything that's gonna be super mind blowing right now. It'sjust Hey, how can I get involved? How can I like, help win deals? How can Ibring some Some light on topics that are a little bit [00:23:00]like that aren't talked about very often, aren't discussed, aren't researched,and then how can I make sure that as many people as possible are aware of itand know what to do with it? And in the process, you learn what works, whatdoesn't, what people like, what they don't like. I've had plenty of whoopsiesand mistakes and all that kind of stuff. That that also makes for great contenton LinkedIn. People love hearing about your losses and so that's great. But itreally just, and then at the end of the day, it's, it, I've also realized thatit's awesome to you.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Of course you wanna do great work for the company that you work for but. It'sreally important to make connections with other people and create genuinerelationships outside of your company. And I'm sure y'all are realizing thistoo. With this podcast, the, my podcast was probably one of my biggest likerelationship builders that I've like ever put even like next to LinkedIn. Andthat's not even, from like a [00:24:00]listener perspective or like a downloads perspective, but just like makingthese connections with people, talking one-on-one, that has really just helpedme in my career just exponentially. And figuring out ways of learning fromother people, making sure that my opinion was known. And it's like one of thosethings too, like strong opinions loosely held. Don't be afraid to share youropinion, but then if somebody Has a better idea or can challenge that idea.Don't be afraid to, change your mind. I think that and just being authentic.I'm not really putting up like a show for really anyone.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Like I am who I am, and so being authentic and sharing that in the workplace onLinkedIn, I think that people can usually See that and appreciate it. And sothat's that, that, that would be some of my tips for hopefully I have respect .I don't know. I appreciate you, you saying that.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:I don't, it's not like I ask people that kind of a thing, but I hope thatpeople do at least respect some of the decisions that I've made and how Ipresent myself.

gab_1_12-15-2023_124029:[00:25:00] Love this. And I would like just topiggyback on some stuff that Eric said, but if right now there's a PMMlistening to the pod and this person is looking to go into ci, you know whatWhat tips or tricks or just on top of your head you think that they should door follow or learn to ultimately go into that direction?

How to break into CI as a PMM

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Luckily CI is just, I think, naturally a part of PMM anyway, and so just lean alittle bit heavier into some of those things. And I. What I the way that I gotstarted was really to just I put together like a CI newsletter for my company,and this was back at ZoomInfo and I shared it like with everyone. And it took,it honestly wasn't that much work. It was like, I. How it was like what are ourcompetitors? How are they growing from like a headcount perspective, which youcan pull from like LinkedIn or Peer Signal. It was how often our competitorswere being mentioned on sales calls, like in Gong. So you can pull that prettyquickly [00:26:00] or chorus, whatever yourconversation intelligence tool is. And then just some, just like weekly or likemonthly competitor news, like what are some moves that people are making? Isthere an acquisition, is there a product launch, is there a funding announcement?And just summarizing that and publishing it. And it was not just helpful for meand understanding the landscape more and more on a consistent basis, but italso helped, showcase like myself as the competitive intel person at ZoomInfoat the time, and just keep that label. And so anytime people thoughtcompetitive, they just thought naturally to loop me in. And so it wasn't likean overnight thing, it was just, it was a result of. Just being associated withthose types of, with that subject matter over the course of years. That, andthen the other really important thing is that you're much better off if yourCEO or your leadership team cares about it, like the. This, the [00:27:00] leadership team at ZoomInfo, Clickup andApollo, that's one thing that they all have in common. They all care about whatcompetitors are up to, like where the market's moving. And so any content thatI would create about that automatically got some attention and visibility fromthem. And anyone knows, if a leader. Thinks that something is important, thenjust more attention gets brought to it and you'll get more resources. And sothat's always been really important. It's, I always it's great if you have apassion for it and you really want to do it. But at the end of the day, youhave to also be in an environment that cultivates that kind of thinking andcelebrates it. And that's one piece that you can't necessarily control ahundred percent of the time. And so just make sure that you take a good lookaround and if yeah, this is like the company like would totally appreciate it.Like you've spoken with people and you think that it's a good place for that,then 100% go for it.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:But also try not to fight too hard. Like at the end of the day a [00:28:00] lot of folks are just like ics and theymight be three, six, however many years into their career and For mostcompanies like you, you just probably won't pivot the entire mindset of thecompany on your own. And so it'll make a lot more sense to start within acompany that appreciates that kind of stuff, and then you can deliver it.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:You know what I mean?

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:With this being your third. Like role building out a CI function? Like how,looking back at your first time, Andy, like what fundamentals have changed orhaven't changed and within the first 30 days of like those of those roles.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Fundamentals. The first company doesn't really count. Like when I was atZoomInfo, it was like my first product marketing role. And so I, I didn'treally have any kind of idea. I was like, I'm just gonna show up and try to dothe best I can. And so there [00:29:00] wasn'tas much strategy. It was just about me jumping in doing whatever with clickupand Apollo, I'll be honest, they're pretty similar.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:You just for me I just try to talk with as many different people as possible.And see what their perspective is on product marketing and competitive intel.Who they think our biggest competitors are, why, who they think our biggest,like what they think our biggest differentiators are.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Like why we win, why we lose. And I try to learn like just like what they'reworking on so that down the road I can. See if I can help them in some way,shape, or form. And I think that, I don't think that's atypical for anyonestarting a new job. In the first 30 days. You wanna get to know people.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:You, I think I've heard a lot of people saying that you shouldn't focus toomuch on just like going around talking to people. You should focus onexecuting. And there's some truth to that. I think that there's a few thingsthat I've like how do I wanna say this? [00:30:00]That I've realized like, oh, these are some quick wins.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:I've seen this win like this work really quickly at multiple companies. I knowI can do this and it'll be like relatively easy for me. And it looks like a lotof people aren't really focusing on it. And so cool. Lemme just take care ofthis so I can show oh yeah, hiring Andy was a good idea.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Like he just turned that thing around. There's a couple of those things. That,just naturally throughout your career, you're gonna notice and you'll be like,Ooh I'm gonna hang onto that. And then I can just apply it to differentcompanies that I work at. And so I've done some of those things before.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:That's important. But you do have to talk to PLE to people because you can'tjust be executing and expecting that it's all gonna be super relevant andhelpful to everyone. You that's a big key of CI is not working on your own andlike this little, bubble that might've worked. A decade ago, when you're justlike talking to the CEO or like the board, but now it's a very cross-functionalthing and so you have to work with other people and make sure that other people[00:31:00] understand the value of the workthat you're doing. And so don't that, I think that's such like a. Thoughtleader like bss oh, hot take a thing. No, you need to like just execute anddon't worry about talking to too many. No, you got you. You can do both. So that'show I've approached it.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:The past couple roles.

Track 1: And itsounds to me like you should do both.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Yes. Yeah. You should do both.

Track 1: Yeah. And Iwanna call out your post. I got, I think it was last week. I've mentioned itlike three or four times, you called out, it's like you don't feel ascomfortable in the sales part of it, right? You've never been a salesperson,but you collaborate extra hard with that side to make sure that you're notcoming off as an ordered deliverer.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Yeah.

Track 1: And that,that resonated really strongly with me, and it sounds like that is good adviceno matter what function you're in, ci, product, marketing, whatever you can'tbe just delivering dishing out orders all the time.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Yeah. Yeah.

Track 1: like that.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:That's that's just important to understand. Like [00:32:00]what, take yourself outta the equation. How do people see your role and what isthe most common interaction look like? For these sales, all hands meetings.What does it look like? It looks like at the surface level, a bunch of peopletelling sales what to do. Hey, we have a new product that's coming out. Youhave to talk about it. Hey, we have this new resource. You should share thiswith customers. Hey, we have a new process for billing or for whatever, so youhave to make sure you apply that. So it's, like at the end of the day do youwanna just like pile on and just be another person telling sales what to do?No. You wanna come in as like a, as a collaborator, as someone that like wantsthem to succeed as a partner. And the same goes for product like I. Everyonethat talks to product is trying to influence the roadmap. And yeah, if you goif you have, if you go into some kind of conversation, you're going to start tofeel some walls coming up on their end because they don't wanna feel likeyou're just coming in to shake up their entire world. And [00:33:00] so you wanna come in as a partner, learnlike what their day-to-day is, what they're succeeding with, what they'restruggling with. And try to get as much of their perspective as possible as itlike relates to some of the recommendation recommendations that you give. Andyeah, the post that you're talking about, Eric was like with, when it comes tolike my deep dive competitive enablement sessions, I'm presenting like 45minutes to the sales team about a specific competitor. I'm not just gonna be upthere just like shoving a bunch of information down their throats and saying,this is because CI says, to do it. It's not what I'm gonna do. I'm as often aspossible, I'm going to share some findings that I've uncovered because of thework that sales has done. The things that make sense, the things that don'tmake sense. And then I'm gonna bring sales in as part of the presentation tosay see, like these people are like really crushing it. They've done a greatjob and and so that's why we've come to this conclusion. It's because of you.And so we wanna make sure that [00:34:00]everyone else understands how to crush it, like these people. And usually ifyou can speak their language and show that you've, I don't know, done yourresearch and you've gotten to know them, then that team that you're speakingwith will respect what you're talking about much more. They'll understand yourrole and what your goals are, and they'll respond a lot better too.

Track 1: An awesometake. And on that note, top. Of research. If you're feeling a little unsure oryou'd like to beef up your research, there's always a March cohort for readyfor launch. Go ahead and sign up now, and Andy will teach you a great sessionabout research.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:my man. Thank you

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:for the

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:plug. Appreciate that.

Track 1: A

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Of course, man. Yeah.

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:was gonna ask, I was gonna ask how do we stay connected with you forindividuals who are learning about you for the first time?

Where to find and learn more about Andy

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Yeah, follow me on LinkedIn, Andy McCotter bne follow healthy competition onLinkedIn. It's just healthy competition. [00:35:00]It's a big broccoli icon. You can subscribe to the newsletter too. You can jointhe community. We got so much stuff going on, so if you just if you follow meon LinkedIn, you'll probably I'll, I share most of that stuff there, so that'sa good place to start.

Track 1: Awesome,man. I appreciate it. I'm a member of the community myself. You've given a lotback to all of us in there,

Track 1: and wereally appreciate you joining the three misfits of We're Not Marketers.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Dude, this was a lot of fun. You guys got a good vibe. Like definitely keepthis going. I love what you've put together here. It's great format. It's a lotof fun. Definitely. Different than a lot of the other podcasts. So definitelykeep going.

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:You not, you're not excluding your own. I hope you're not excluding your own

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:mine's a little bit different though. It's just one-on-one I love like thecomradery of a group of guys just my, like my favorite podcast is my firstmillion. And like just having the main two hosts and sometimes they bring on aninterview or bring on a guest, yeah. I love that kind of style, and you guyshave, are doing a great job here. So definitely keep it [00:36:00] up.

gab_1_12-15-2023_124029:That means a lot.

Track 1: It soundslike we'll be asking you for a future season then.

andy_1_12-15-2023_094030:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I'm happy to hang out whenever, so just let me know.

gab_1_12-15-2023_124029:Amazing.

zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_094031:Andy.

‍