Being *bold* in product marketing. What should that *really*look like?

Introduction and Hosts' Welcome

[00:00:00]

We are podcasts for product markets and B2B SaaS who feelmisunderstood of what they do. From someone who truly gets what you do.Basically help you feel less like a misfit to being unignorable in your role.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:Hey Everyone. Welcome to another episode of We're Not Marketers . This is Zach,the sales water boy on the call.

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:Gab Bujold, the sales deck intern. I still do sales deck until I die.

Track 1: And forSeason 2. You still got Eric Holland here, the one and only Frankenmarketer ofthe group. And Zach, back to you.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:so you can introduce our special guest of the episode.

Introducing the Special Guest: Julien Sauvage

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:We've got Julien Sauvage here with us here today. Julien's the VP of productmarketing and along with customer marketing and along with expandedresponsibilities over at Clari, what you might not know about Julien is thatprior to product marketing, he was in data science at [00:01:00]Salesforce.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:We're really excited to have this conversation with Julien to really understanda few things. One, how does a non traditional experience in product marketingmake you a better marketing leader? And two, we're just here to kick it. But tostart

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:things off, Julien, what gaps do we need to fill in your illustrious intro thatwe are missing right now?

Track 1: I think yougot it pretty well, my friend. Good job, even pronouncing my name. I like it. Iwould say Salesforce actually was PMM at Salesforce. Data science is evenbefore Salesforce when I was still back in France. But yeah, no, that's a, Ithink you, you got it pretty well covered. I'm excited to be here.

Track 1: Thanks forhaving me. And welcome to Season 2, whatever. Yeah.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:I'm glad for two things for having Eric on. Eric's got to keep me more honestto the audience research, and but the second piece. We got to give a shout outto Gab here too, because he kept me on point with the French pronunciationhere.

Track 1: Good job,Gab.

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:Yes. I have no merit. It's a language thing.

Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:And it's bringing us to the [00:02:00] questionof the hour that we ask every single one of our guests. So, Julien, are productmarketers actually marketers? Why or why not?

Track 1: First off Ilove I knew you would be asking me that question and I feel like I commented afew times on your posts on LinkedIn. I love the provocation that comes with it.So I I like that. I like your, I like that title. I like that thing. Yes, Ithink we are I think productmarketers are marketers a hundred percent.

Track 1: The whyis if you think about the missionof product marketers and you feel, if you think of the mission of marketers,it's kind of the same thing. And to me that would be, we're here to change howpeople think about their life, their pain points, and then how they act andfind solutions about those pain points.

Track 1: Right. Sohow people think and how people find solutions. And I feel like that's what PMMdo. And that's what [00:03:00] marketing shouldbe all about as well. When you apply that same thing to demand, to content, toPR, to You know, customer marketing, it still is very much vetted. So I I standby my POV and think that because of the shared why and mission and KPIsmarketers, I mean, product marketers are marketers for sure.

Track 1: You knowwhat? I might even go like a little, I'm just going to riff with you for asecond. Like the question should almost be opposite. Like maybe the realquestion you should kick off your show is wait, Are marketers actually product marketers? Like maybe that's a better way toframe it because every marketer should be a bit of a PMM.

Track 1: So I'mreframing your question if that makes sense. Yeah.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:that might be one of the spicier takes we've heard so far.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:Oh, We're Not Marketers exclusive. He pulled a Uno reverse on us. Y'all.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:I know I wasn't ready for that. And [00:04:00]that might be the season. That might be the season three question, right?

Track 1: Ooh,

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:That's really

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:good. And I you know, for context, I resonate very strongly with what you'resaying. I think there's obviously nuances and the reason that we picked theposition that we did. And ideally I would, if I had a dream world, you justdescribed it for me, Julien would be everymarketer is a product marketer, and then they go off and they getchannel specific and get really good at a channel, right? But I love thatprocess of or thought process specifically around. Adding more product marketing to marketing, as opposed toadding more marketing to product marketing.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:That's very introspective. What do you guys think so far?

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:I like it very much and it makes me think about the, one of the episodes thatwe actually had on season 2 that I won't say because I'm not sure of thescheduling [00:05:00] yet, but in that episodewe spoke about, Like their origin of marketing and the origin of it was likethe Brand Man. It's kind of covering that part, the fact that ultimatelyat the source, a lot of marketing isproduct marketing and in a lot of situation, I feel like we kind ofdrift away from the foundational basics. And I think that's also why, you know,I think Anthony Pieri said something similar in season one, which was why not,instead of saying We're Not Marketers, we're not saying marketers are more thanthat, more than marketers or stuff like that. So, yeah, I think it's a verygood as I said, you know, Uno reverse card. Definitely something to think about

Track 1: It just cameto my mind. Sorry if it came off like off-script. Not that I even have ascript. I never have scripts, by the way. I think scripts suck.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:This show doesn't have a script.

Track 1: that'sseason five, by the way.

Track 1: Scriptssuck. They suck. But it's you know. Yeah, no, I like that man. I know you'renot and that's why I like this vibe. But yeah, like I've [00:06:00] seen so many like examples of marketers whodon't care about like the fundamentals of marketing, right? It's oh because Iown like a given campaign or a given channel like i'm just going to rely on PMMto give me the messaging and the copy. And I freaking hate that every marketershould be a good copywriter.

Track 1: Every marketer should be a good messagingperson, you know So yeah, I think there's something there that We candouble click on every marketer should be a better product marketer.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:We had a previous season one guest, Tamara Grominsky, who said differently.About product markers, writing copy, but let's hold on that for a few minuteshere, but one question I have for you to your point about product markers,changing how people think and act.

The Role of Boldness in Marketing

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:Curious, like how did your time at Salesforce influence that point of view inleading the unique positioning at both Gong and Clari, because you said likewith Gong, for instance, you all didn't say We're the Salesforce of salescalls. So I'm curious, like, [00:07:00] howdoes that POV have influenced the past work you've done at Gong and what youguys are doing today at Clari?

Track 1: Yeah, I think there's there's like commonpatterns and kind of like qualities that PMMs at Salesforce qualities andflaws, I guess, both that a good that PMMs at Salesforce have and PMMs at Gongand PMM at Clari. I think we there's I think there's the intention, theintentionality of being bold.

Track 1: I know everybody's Oh yeah, I'm sodifferent. I'm so bold. I stand out, but then it's bullshit, right? Like youtake a look at every company's homepage and it's exactly the same crap. It'sall GPT and it's all whatever. And so I think a lot of people say, Oh, I'mbold. They're just posers. So sorry, I'm going off script, but I think there's,I think there is a, there's a culture.

Track 1: Of putting up a show, right, like [00:08:00] Dreamforce, or a massive Gong Celebrate event, or a really big ClariCharge event we want to be bold, we want to be different we don't really, youknow, care about the playbook as much. I think that would be at least my way ofseeing the, you know, the through line between these companies in terms of howthey approach, I would say, not just PMM, but messaging and storytelling ingeneral, like they don't mind taking risks and They hate jargon.

Track 1: I actually, I say that multiple times. I useGPT all the time to know what not to write. So, yeah. So, yeah, that's kind ofmy take on that.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:TL;DR. So when GPT tells you left good, tells you go left, Julien saying, goright.

Track 1: I don't knowif it's like that drastic, but like at least if you want to know what hasn'tbeen, what has been said, then you use GPT and then you try to [00:09:00] do different things, right?

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:Oh,

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:that's super, super savvy. I've never even thought about that, but you're ahundred percent right. If GPT is giving you that, then you can know two things.One, it's, you know, sounds all jargony anyways, and two, it's coming from somepublic record. So someone else has used it somewhere. That's

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:super savvy. I love how you just straight up said, if you call yourself bold,you're a poser most likely. And I

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:totally agree. I totally agree with you, man. I totally agree. Like I hear itall the time and I just can't, I can just look at things and I'm like, you'renot bold. You're not taking risks.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:You're not willing to do the scary thing

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:that, you know so that's, I'm going to use that. Anyone who says they're bold.I'm just going to call them a poser from now

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:and it doesn't take long to realize that they are poser too. Like you juststarted asking specific question and realize that like their whole point ofview is we're number [00:10:00] one in categoryor we're more than a CRM. I don't understand that one as a headline, give methe cringe. But yeah I think it's it's a strong point of view, as you said.

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:But. I strongly relate to it as well.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:And I got a question that's like burning now. And I actually was, I think aboutthis every time I see the word on a homepage, but like you've crushed it now atthree places, right? Gong, Salesforce, Clari right now. Something that I findsuper savvy is that you're using revenue as kind of an anchor point for yourpositioning. And I've always felt oh my gosh, like anyone can talk aboutrevenue in their positioning. So what do you feel like, or how are you, how hasthat been able to have been pulled off by some of those bigger companies wherethey anchor into revenue and show the value? As opposed to just sounding likesomeone else in the sea of sameness.

Track 1: Sea of sameness sameness. Yeah, I think Ithink [00:11:00] that what stands out now for real is not revenue.Everybody can say we're helping you close more revenue, blah. It's the wordthat comes after revenue. And that word has to be new, right? Whether it's aword that describes the pain point that people are experiencing, which is whatwe're doing at Clari.

Track 1: We talk about revenue leak. Yeah. That's ourvillain. So why do you need Clari? You need Clari to identify sources ofrevenue leak and then plug them. Whether that second word that comes afterrevenue is the name of your category. Gong did that with revenue intelligenceor whether that second word is the actual name of your product, which is whatSalesforce did with revenue

Track 1: cloud. So I'm like being like specific and deliberate about the wordchoice of that second word. But I think that's how you stand out. You haverevenue and then you choose the second word wisely to describe either your [00:12:00] problem,your market, or your product.

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:I really like this, but would you say it's applicable for earlier stagecompanies as well to try to define that kind of second action word, in thatcase, next to revenue, or is it more something that could work with establishedcompanies, aka Gong, Clari, Salesforce?

Track 1: It's alwaysdepends, right? That's always the most annoying answer, but being pragmatic that creating a new problemstatement and a new category above that stuff takes time and people and effortand focus and dollars and budget and all of that, which is not something that,you know, super early stage startups can afford.

Track 1: So I'm alittle torn, but I think yeah, like theoretically you, you really, you try to own one. One word or a few sets ofwords because that's what people remember, you know, people remember stories.Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All the Pixar stuff and all the whatever and you're askingstuff cool Yeah, you remember that but atthe [00:13:00] end of the day the attention span's been so short You don'tactually even all often remember the full story.

Track 1: You remember one or two words. So pick yourwords wisely and that should help you stand out no matter what stage you're at.

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:Love it.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:Curious from your point of view in your career, can you tell us a time when youhad, when you took a bold decision? That went against the grain internally. Howdid you navigate that? How did you build influence on your idea or if it didn'twork out? How come?

Track 1: Oh, my God. How much time do we have again?Five hours, a couple of days, a full retreat in Napa for a week. Yeah, man, Ihave horror stories and wind stories for sure of being bold at the wrong timeor with the wrong person or with the right company. Like we all do, right? Somaybe I'll try to give you.

Track 1: An example of something that worked andsomething that didn't work. Something that worked and maybe I'm going to use [00:14:00] Claria little more, not cause I want to self promote my current gig more cause it'sjust more recent and current cause I'm old.

Event Branding Success at Clari

Track 1: I forget things now, but Clari, I think agood example of like boldness that paid off is our event branding.

Track 1: So Clari hasa well-defined brand and with that goes a visual identity and it's wellcodified and I have my creative director, he's on my team, a guy called Jesse,awesome guy you would like him, same vibe as you very chill. And and so that'sall good and great, but I was like, Can we push the boundary and be a littlebolder?

Track 1: Yeah. Withour event branding still not, you know, go too far and completely forget aboutthe core corporate brand, but, you know, play be a little more playful becausewe know exactly who's going to come to our event virtual/in-person, by the way.And so let's try to build off that. And that's when we came up [00:15:00] a year and a half ago with the name of theevent, as well as the branding that goes with it.

Track 1: So the eventis called Charge, which I like it's called Charge The Revenue Summit. It'sbold, right? It's also having multiple meanings like you can charge ahead likea bull, you can recharge, or charge up. There's multiple ways you can takecharge in terms of the meaning of the word. And then we went with the chargeahead first idea and so our mascot, our icon was a bull. And the whole brandingof the event was all red, so lots of red, a big bull, a lightning bolt, andsome lightning bolts that came out of everything. The fucking bull so it's likea lightning bolt bull type thing.

Track 1: It was a bigbet. It was not, you know, it was not a given pretty far from the origin of thebrand. Way bolder and I think we the first event we did with Devin Reed, ourhead of content, and Ryan, [00:16:00] my headof PMM. We had over 3, 000 registrations, which was 10x anything that Clari hasever seen.

Track 1: So that's agood example of, you know, taking a bet. I know people think red is bad, but wewent out all in with the red and the bull and that boldness and it actuallypaid off and we had a lot of registrations.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:Well, I can just say as one who very much likes to toe the line and cross itwhen it comes to creativity, I love how you, how y'all did that, particularlybecause I don't, yeah, when I think of Clari, I've never once thought red. Andso the immediate, pushback internally from a variety of stakeholders. But thefact that you went with it, you know, you committed to it, you edu, you know,you educated internally on why we're doing this and made sure you got thebuy-in. And now it's, you got 3000 registrations. That's just fricking awesome.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:That's so cool.

Track 1: Yeah. Yeah.Yeah. Cool. Thanks. [00:17:00] Thanks. Thanks.Yeah. So that's that was that,

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:I said, I'm ready for the horror story, but I gotta say, I'm going to lean inon the success story when I bring it to my leadership on the next, I'll say, Juliendid this, it worked out.

Track 1: Yeah. Allright.

The Einstein Smart Speaker Flop

Track 1: So maybeanother example like, uh, I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's horrorstory, but something we tried with Einstein and Salesforce. I was on, I was thelead PMM on Einstein at Salesforce. Right. So the AI stuff back then, 2016 to2020 left in 2020. And so one of the bold moves that actually came from thetop, to be honest, was back at Dreamforce 2019.

Track 1: I think itwas before COVID. So the last big Dreamforce, the last big in-person, you know,think or over 150,000 people, the streets of San Francisco are crazy. You can'tmove around. Uber charges you 5X. [00:18:00]It's like the whole city is taken over. It's ridiculous. And I hate it as a SanFranciscan myself now, in any case, so big event.

Track 1: And so thebold bet was, let's have an Einstein smart speaker. Like an actual, because itwas all the rage of Google Home and Alexa back then 2019, right? And so wesaid, Okay, we're going to have a demo of, you know, somebody asking anEinstein shaped smart speaker to go and query the Salesforce CRM data and giveanswers.

Track 1: So Yo,what's up Einstein. What's my top three opportunities in my pipe right now.And then Einstein would be like, Oh, your opportunities are ABC.Complete flop. We did the keynote, the Einstein keynote, and then people werejust confused. They thought Salesforce was going to go and sell hardware. Andpeople wanted, came to our booth after and wanted to buy the goddamn thing.

Track 1: And it wasjust so confusing and very cringy. And just the speaker itself had a weirdBritish accent. Like we tested all [00:19:00]the accents And there's data that shows that for an American audience, that'sgoing to be, that's going to be funny, maybe not PC, but real data for anAmerican audience, if you want to sound smart, you have to have a Britishaccent.

Track 1: There's datathat shows that. So that Einstein bubblehead guy was just talking with likeBritish accent. It was just, it was not good. So not a horror story, but a lotof time and effort was, were spent into that thing, and I don't think we hithome with that keynote. At all.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:Do you feel like that wasn't bold enough?

Track 1: Oh, goodquestion. I don't know, man. Like putting a British speaking weird, you know,smart speaker on the stage when there's 10,000 people in the room and 10x thatlive streaming. I feel like that's as bold as it gets, but maybe I should havebeen bolder. I don't know.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:Shoulda, shoulda,

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:went with the Island accent. Shoulda went with the Jamaican accent.

Track 1: There yougo. Yeah. Well, the French accent. Yeah. Let me [00:20:00]tell you what your forecast is. Something like that. Yeah,

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:What do you think, what do you think went wrong in that situation? If you'reable to try to trace it back a little bit, is there anything that you thinkcould have happened differently? If, for example, you could have been bolder,as Eric said, or if you had some guardrails in place.

Track 1: it's a goodquestion. I don't know.

Reflecting on Dreamforce's Gimmicks

Track 1: I wouldhave, I need to do more self reflection, I guess.

Track 1: I think itwas just gimmicky, right? To a point like, I understand like, everybody knowsDreamforce is a circus it just is, and people love that, and I love that.

Track 1: I still goto Dreamforce, even as a non-Salesforce employee, because it's just anenjoyable show and there's Metallica, and, or, and whomever playing it's a coolshow and so we know that Dreamforce is always a little cheesy, like that andloud. And like bad taste a little bit, but I think that went a little too far.

Track 1: Like it justended up being [00:21:00] something completelyunrealistic, obviously also very fake, of course, we wouldn't take the risk ofinteracting with a smart speaker on stage. Everything was pre recorded, right?The smart speaker wasn't even plugged in or anything. So it just came across asgimmicky, forced, fake, and yeah, kind of cringe.

Track 1: I would say.So I don't think it was a matter of being, I don't think it was too bold. Itwas just too like bold is always enjoy.It's enjoyable. If it's done in a tasteful way, like you have to be subtle.It's like humor, right? Like it had bolder humor of the, kind of the samething. If you overdo it a little bit, then it just becomes like something thatyou lose people with

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:Love the breakdown.

Track 1: can't

Track 1: speakerthing. Thing completely was forgotten in my mind these all these years yourguys are bringing the good old horror [00:22:00]stories

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:Someone from a Salesforce who's on the PMM teams couldn't probably hear thisand he'd be like, You know what? Let's bring that back. Relaunch it.

Track 1: Yeah, i'msure

Track 1: no, weshould experiment with a bull type thing we actually wanted to do. Like a bull.I don't know the name in English like.

Track 1: Wheel thewhatever right like the cowboy thing You at the past in person event and yeah,there is too much liability and whatnot.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:It might be too late to suggest this, but maybe running with the bulls throughSan Francisco. Just, you know,

Track 1: Yeah. It'sPaddy style. The corrida. Yeah. I like it. This Paddy

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:Yeah.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:That'll get people's attention.

Track 1: Yeah. Thereyou go.

The Importance of Data in Product Marketing

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:How does your background coming from that data science, right?

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:Different type of research, maybe, but still the

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:same thing. Very deep in depth sometimes grueling research. How has that helpedyou become a better product marketer and elevate

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:throughout your career?

Track 1: That's a great question. I think it's helped[00:23:00] me just because of, like the proximity with the numbers, right?Like I, I'm think I mentioned that at another podcast recently or something, Ican't remember, but I think in essence, what I said was what I hate about PMMsometimes. People are almost like, Oh, we're PMMs, you know, like it'salmost like we're too good to get into the grungy numbers and data, you know,like I'm just telling the story.

Track 1: You guys figure out the metrics. I hate that. And so I think it's on everymarketer, PMM included, to be able to go full of their sleeves and get into thegrungy, dirty details of the data and the metrics and know how much pipe youinfluenced and you sourced and what's your awareness metrics and are youboosting product adoption oh, those are numbers, they're KPIs, they're stats,and so I never I'd never want to hear the PMM objection of [00:24:00] I'mjust a storyteller.

Track 1: You go figure out the details and the data. So, sorry, I went a little off, but I thinkwhat I think my data background brings me that the, you know, and everybody, bythe way, everybody's saying always Oh, I'm data-driven. How many timeshave we heard people say I'm data-driven? Have you ever heard somebody not say I'm data-driven?

Track 1: So,

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:The data at all times.

Track 1: There yougo. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not a data-driven. Yeah, exactly. So I thinkthat's my that's my, how my background helped me like going into the weeds ofthe data and my advice to everybody is yougot to get your hands dirty and get, you know, deep into data to show

Track 1: impact. Yep.

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:That's a really strong take. I like it.

Challenges and Realities of PMM

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:My first question is how often are you hearing PMMs looking to separatethemselves from that essential point of data gathering and making sure that youactually data-driven air quotes. So that's my first question. The second one [00:25:00] is from someone who was knee-deep intodata with your data science background, how much do you think PMM should belike sorry, I'll just plug a friend for a French word, but allies with data,how much do you think they should be comfortable with data basically?

Track 1: Yeah. So I think I would hear, I don't knowif you take 10 PMMs across companies, segments, maturities, markets, probably Iwould hear I'm too good for that data shit type of thing. Four out of10. I think it's common. I don't think it's just isolated stuff. Yeah, ofcourse they wouldn't come across as that but if you start digging a littledeeper you realize they actually don't make up the.

Track 1: they don't make the time to go deep into thedata, right? So, and then if you start pushing them a little bit and belike, wait, what [00:26:00] exactly is yourKPI? Then they're like, you know, they don't have a good answer, right? So, Ithink it's more, you know, Common than we would hope for. And then, yeah, ahundred percent, I think PMM and data, they have to be like every marketer hasto be data-driven.

Track 1: I hate to use that expression now, but yougotta be close to your numbers, man. I'd like not the whole thing, but what areall the three KPIs you own? And then report on them every other week. That'sthe only way people are always, you know, like misunderstanding PMM as we know,and PMM is like, whatever.

Track 1: But if we don't show impact and metrics,then we're doing a disservice to the function. So it's on us PMM to evangelizewhat we're doing by showing data and impact.

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:No, definitely. I think there's also like a you know, a situation with companysize. When I was a PMM working in enterprise, we had [00:27:00]to know our numbers like a hundred percent of the time. Every time that we weredoing a brief or a launch or anything, it was always, okay, What's thestatus right now? Do you know your number by heart?

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:And we were supposed to know it when you're in a startup. I mean, a good oneshould have that data stuff figured out. Like you should be close to yournumbers as well, but I saw it less. I saw like stuff that would ultimately giveyou nightmares of, okay, so those are your marketing goals. And when you take alook at it, it's not tied to revenue.

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:It's like a bunch of lagging indicators. So I think that the context wait alot, but

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:think you have a very like normal point of view. Marketing should be likecomfortable with data and also that's almost like two faces of the same cointhat, you know, we are storyteller at heart. We understand how to tell a goodstory.

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:But. We also have to get into the numbers and making sure

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:that I'm actually actionable to bring those results and making sure that thisgo in the direction I want it [00:28:00] to be.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:You know, and

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:this is even, this has opened up another point of conversation, right, for me,at least, that I want to bring up. So I am, I'm one of the quickest to be like,salespeople are lazy, right? What I'm, what I just thought to myself is productmarketers can be also kind of lazy. Like I think particularly around that,right.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:The disservice that we're doing as a whole to not attach our efforts to metricsand not get into the data. That's not helping you. And it's definitely nothelping the four gents on this call elevate their cachet in terms of productmarketing and the organization and the value we bring. And I can't tell you howmany times that I've heard from people either say directly, which puts a holein my heart every time, or I'm able to ask the right questions and then discernthe answer, but long story short, product marketers are historically known for [00:29:00] not even talking to their customers.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:Right. Right. So I think there is an element there that a lot of people may notwant to like, look at themselves in the mirror and say, I'm not digging intothe data enough. I'm not attaching myself to KPIs enough. I'm not talking to mycustomers enough. And that might be a reality that, you know, some of us allneed to face.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:And when Gab, Zach and I are chirping from the mountaintops on how productmarketers are misunderstood. Well, we're not helping ourselves out if we're notdoing those things that you mentioned, Julien.

Track 1: 100 percent could not agree more like wecould write a book about how self-inflicted the PMM pain is. Honestly it's halfnot PMM, but it's also half PMM. Like we tend to make simple things complex,which is weird. Cause like the PMM function, it's all about taking the complexand making that simple, but for ourselves, the way we describe ourselves is sofreaking convoluted [00:30:00] as if we felt a little insecure and we justhave to add stuff to, you know, the function and as such, I think we're, as yousaid, we're doing a disservice to the function by.

Track 1: You know, not being clear about what we doand what we don't do. I could not agree more.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:maybe we should, maybe we just put data-driven in front of our title and callourselves data-driven product marketer.

Track 1: Don't get mestarted.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:Julien, you said it earlier. And it seems like being a product marketer in yourview is a tall order.

The Role of Copywriting in PMM

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:It's not only knowing the data, but also being able to write the messaging andwriting the copy. One challenge that we've seen for a lot of product marketerswhen they do write messaging. They put it forth. They've been bold. They'redecisive. It goes through the review cycle and it's just tarred and feathered.It just is, it's like blander than like a salad at like my mother's likecookouts. It's [00:31:00] terrible. So I'mgonna ask you this now. What, from what you are saying, if PMMs should becopywriters, along with crafting the messaging, does that mean that PMM shouldhave final say on the messaging and copy that goes on the homepage website?

Track 1: Yeah, that'sa super complex and spicy question, as we know, homepage. But before I eventackle that, I would say I do believe I stand by my point. I do believe PMMshave to be good copywriters. I don't know if they own the final version of thecopy that goes out in that, you know, You know, ebook piece of content,webpage, whatever.

Track 1: But again,way too often have I seen a little bit of that laziness that I think Eric, youmentioned too, right? It's I'm too good to write copy. And then just gotake a look at my MPD, my messaging positioning [00:32:00]doc. No, it's not, that's not the way. The reason why I always want my PMMs tobe good copywriters is it's going to be, it's going to provide real-timefeedback to your messaging.

Track 1: If you writea messaging doc, you don't try to then write actual sentences of it. You willnever kind of test that thing out because at the end of the day, that messagingdoc is internal, right? So you have to be able to trans to translate that intoactual copy and sentences, and then you'll realize, Oh, wow, that second pillarvalue prop that I just used, it just doesn't flow nicely with my writing.

Track 1: I'm going toget back to it. And then you revise your messaging doc. V2, you write it somuch better and then you keep going. Sothat iterative process of from messaging doc to copywriting, I think helps alot, both on messaging and on copy. And then the final thing I'll say aboutcopy is [00:33:00] clear. Writing is clear thinking.

Track 1: If you can't write, you can't think fullstop. So again, even if you don't own the final version of the copy, you got tobe a good writer because if you're not, that means you're not a good thinker.

Track 1: I love

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:the take and I think we can even extrapolate it a little further. And the factthat it's not only about writing copy, I think, but it's about. If I'm a marketer or if I'm someone insales or if I'm whoever inside of the organization and I will be relying onthose documents, like the messaging document, the positioning, whatever, to dosomething with it. If we're unable ourself to do some part of the work, thenit's going to be very hard for people to actually do the work. If I'm a copywriterinternally, I'm getting the messaging document from the PMM and I don'tnecessarily have an example or it hasn't been. Push to the level where I myselfas PMM can write some copy and then putting it to someone who would be farbetter. It's kind of hard [00:34:00] to be a

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:good team support in that caseand making sure that you can actually help your colleagues do their best work.

Track 1: That'sexactly right. You're completely spot on, Gab. Yeah, it's like typically acopywriter like you think about their world, right? They have to write copylike all day long across channels and different stages and. Whatever andpersona and it's just it's not an easy job.

Track 1: No job is easy ever anyway, but if you justgive them like that value prop type of document you know, three bullet pointswith the sub and whatever it's just going to be like, I don't know what the Fto do with this. They just don't know. So if you give them that plus a goodenough V1 of your suggested copy, Then they're going to take that to the nextlevel.

Track 1: Like I've had tons of examples of abeautiful web page that was created in no time because we shipped bothmessaging and early copy to the web copywriter and also pretty bad web pagesbecause we only shipped [00:35:00] messaging document and not a V1 of the copy.So yeah, could not agree more. I realized I didn't answer the homepagequestion.

Track 1: I thinkhomepage ownership is that's a classic. It depends case. I just can't say PMMshould own homepage. Honestly, if you were to ask me, I think CMO ownshomepage. I could even argue CEO owns homepage in a way like it's the mostviewed page of your most used marketing asset, which is your freaking website.

Track 1: It capturesall, like you can do all the thought leadership in all the awareness stuff inthe world, website captures that and turns that into leads. So it's thatimportant, right? So website, I mean, homepage ownership is as high as theC-suite for sure in my mind.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:Copywriting is a different muscle that most PMMs don't have. I've read before,copywriting is the sales version of writing. You said [00:36:00]it earlier, a lot of these PMMs out here are lacking. They're out here runningon elliptical machines thinking they're gonna have a beach bod by the end ofSeptember. But you're telling us to be copywriters, hit the squat rack. I'mcurious, from your point of view, what are resources that PMMs can get to bemore prolific copywriters versus just spinning their wheels on that ellipticalmachine that's not going to give them that summer body of copywriting as you'redescribing?

Track 1: Look at youdoing metaphors and shit like that. It's good. Yeah, I

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:You might say

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:I'm a copywriter.

Track 1: Yeah. No, Ilike it, man. I'm just giving you a hard time. I don't I can't think of a goodresource right now. I think I think there's no easy way. Like the only way tolearn is to do it, kind of, you know, like I know it sounds a little, but alittle cliche, but yes, you can write books about copywriting and Devin Reedagain, I mentioned him earlier is a master at that stuff and he, you can checkout his Content [00:37:00] That Converts .

Track 1: So there's alot of good resource, but it's all until you try, you don't know. So I thinkyou can, it's on us all to educate ourselves a little bit, not for too long,and then just go take that little thing. and start writing and then don't feellike your writing is your baby. Don't be offended if it's, if people tell youit's bad.

Track 1: If they tellyou it's bad it probably is because it is and then you just iterate and, youknow, it takes time but then you get there. So sorry, not the best answer butyou can't think if you don't write and you can't get to write if you don't try.That'd be my,

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:Yeah,

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:Whip that

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:pen out. I like

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:agree. I think you gave a great answer. I firmly believe copywriting is apracticed activity and you get better with it, the more you practice. So justwrite stories, you know, whether it's your personal stories and you've got yourown journal, [00:38:00] make some you know,dark projects and write some copy that I'll never see the light of day anyways,And yeah, I think that's the muscle.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:You just got to keep flexing. You got to keep building. And it's not a magicpotion or a magic lesson that you got to take one time and it's, you know, it'sall set in stone. You get better as you go.

Track 1: I think thelast thing I want to say is I agree, Eric, I think people get intimidated bywriting, right? It's Oh my God, I don't know where to start. Like writing issuch an intellectual thing. It's not like that's how we like, I have twokids. What do they do at school all day? In like first grade and whatever, likethey write that's what they think.

Track 1: Like we allknow how to write. That's where we started. And now somehow it got lost alongthe way. So I just want to, I guess, send that message that writing is in theheart and it's not as intimidating as you think, because that's where we allstarted.

Track 1: Put

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:the reps in. Put the reps in.

Final Thoughts and Farewell

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:I know we're, we [00:39:00] have about a minuteleft here too. So, Eric, I think you think it's a good time to kind of closeout, right?

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:Yeah. Let's give him his farewell send off. Much deserved. All right. SoJulien. I just want to say thank you from all three of us for getting on a callwith us midweek. I know you've got a lot going on over there at Clari. One ofour favorites, Emily Pick is actually just joined the crew over there. So

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:we know you've got a lot going on from the top down. For anyone who's on thecall listening to today, is there anywhere you'd like to send them to maybelearn a little bit more about you, any passion projects you have on the side,or even more information about what Clari's doing and how you're building outthat team there?

Track 1: yeah. Imean, I would just that's three questions in one. If you want to get in touchwith me, I think LinkedIn is the best way. I don't do Twitter. I don't doInstagram, any of that stuff. So LinkedIn passion projects. I don't have timefor those. I wish I did, but full time job plus being a [00:40:00] dad, that's just my life has no real passion project.

Track 1: I can justsay I I had thousands of vinyls at my place. So I'm a vinyl and music nerd. Ibelieve Zach, you and I met, talked about it when we met in person a couple ofmonths ago. And then Clari, Clari. com. Easy.

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:Awesome. You're also sharing some stuff on LinkedIn about I think you weresharing your favorite croissant spot in San Fran. So that's always you know, Ihave a list of spot to visit. When I'll be there.

Track 1: We cancompare notes. That'd be fun.

gab_1_04-10-2024_144329:Definitely.

eric_1_04-10-2024_144330:Well, thank you for coming on the show and thank you for everyone for listeningfor another episode of We're Not Marketers we'll catch you next time.

zach-_1_04-10-2024_114330:right. See you guys.

​

Thank you for listening to We're Not Marketers. If you likewhat you heard, please subscribe, review our [00:41:00]podcast, and share this episode with other PMMs. Thanks again and see you soon.

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