Build an internal brand, using CI w/ Patrick Wall

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We are podcasts for product marketers and B2B SaaS who feelmisunderstood of what they do. From someone who truly gets what you do.Basically help you feel less like a misfit to being unignorable in your role.

Track 1: All right,everyone. Welcome to another episode of We're Not Marketers. You've got the oneand only and still self titled Franken marketer here. Eric Holland, I'll tossit down to you, Zach, to give an intro.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:Oh, before I kick off the intro, I didn't realize we're both rocking oursweaters today. So I got

Track 1: Yes.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:from the top level, it looks like glorified storyteller. So I don't know ifthat's a prelude of what we're going to discuss. But hey I'm Zach. I'm thesales water boy. I'm going to pass down the gab.

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:Gap Bujold, sales deck intern, still doing sales deck until I die. And from mypoint of view, it's actually [00:01:00]Storyteller Glorified, which still doesn't work, but I'll take

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:If we add a comma

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:after storyteller.

Track 1: We're onseason two now and we haven't got rid of those names, so you see, things aren'tchanging here. And we've got a very special guest someone who I've actuallybeen able to meet in person luckily and one of probably my biggest influencesin the CI space, Mr. Patrick Wall.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:All right.

Track 1: You mindgiving an intro for our audience and anyone who's not familiar with where tofind you?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Hey my name is Pat Wall head of competitive intelligence at a company calledImperva also called also now purchased by Talos. And yeah, I just loveeverything compete, you know, I love working on competitive intelligence,helping sales, helping product, helping marketing, understand our competition,how to message it and how to win. And to be honest, I also really wish I hadone of those cool sweatshirts. You know, I really need one of those coolstoryteller glorified sweatshirts. So hopefully I can grab one

Track 1: Alright wedo have them available, but we might get you, we might get you a freebie [00:02:00] because, you know.

Track 1: Okay, youwere gracious enough to give us your time,

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:Yes.

Track 1: but Pat, wehave a huge question. We like to ask every guest and we let Gab do the honorsfor that. Gab, take it away.

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:Yeah, perfect. So Pat, are product marketers actually marketers? Why or whynot?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Product marketers are 100percent marketers.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:I actually say they are some ofthe best marketers out there. I think, you know, you can, when you lookat a marketing organization, the cornerstone of a lot of marketingorganizations are the product marketers, right? When you look at a company thathas really good, crisp, clean messaging and content. That's coming from aproduct marketer and I think product marketers are 100 percent marketers, but there's so much more too. They're partsales, they're part products. And that's why I think it's when you have great product marketing, itshows out across the entire organization.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:And as a CI specialist here, CIs pro Pat, how does CI relate to productmarketing from your [00:03:00] experience?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:I think CI and product marketing hand in hand. You know, I came from productmarketing. I came actually from sales toproduct marketing to CI. And the way I did this was just looking at, Hey,you know, I like sales. I want to help build the better material. So youcame into product marketing. And then product marketing, I'm like, I needto, we want to win.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:And how do we understand our competitors? And so that's where I took the partof my product marketing and say, Okay, let's become a niche individualwithin the competitive intelligence world under product marketing and kind ofshow that out. And the great thing about that is you still have thoseproduct marketing chops as a CI individual, where you can do the sales, you cando the marketing, you can do the product, and so it gives you this wholeencompassing area.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:I'm going to let you know, I've done some research on you too, so a healthierlevel for a good conversation. Not too much to be creepy. You know,

Track 1: get a littleweird on this show. Get a little weird. Pat, quick [00:04:00]question. How did you know, first, essentially, did you know any otherinfluencers in CI that propelled you into that space? Like for me, for example,I had you, I had Clara, I had Andy, right? Did you have any of those coming inor were you kind of, you know?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Not at all. So basically I started my career as a cell engineer selling dataanalytics software, met these product marketers who were like, Hey Pat, weneed your help building this dashboard. Can you help us build a dashboard forSalesforce? I'm like, Sure. I don't know the product marketers.I'm like, Wow, these individuals are really smart and amazing.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:And so I moved into product marketing. And then from there I'm like, Okay,this is really interesting. This is really impactful, but there's a piecemissing is, and I just fell into it as competitive intelligence where Ijust, you know, Hey, let's build these battlecards. Let's make thesepresentations. Let's enable sales. And so in organically, I kind of becamethe competitive intelligence person within a product marketing and I did itreally well. So that's when I said, okay, now maybe this should be part of mycareer. And that's where I've moved into different organizations and helpedthem build competitive intelligence programs.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:[00:05:00] Pat, you this episode launches,you're going to, it's going to be your one year anniversary of the book youwrote with Bruce. I was reading the description on Amazon because I did nothave enough time to read your book before this episode. But. I was really keento hear more about a line you mentioned in the description, you met, you talk alittle bit about how most CI programs play the notes and fail to make themusic. Can you dig a little deeper on that? Were you listening, were youwatching the Black Eyed Peas Superbowl like show when you were thinking of thatline? Because, hot take, I don't like B. I. P., the Black Eyed Peas, but that'snot what the episode's about, but, just dig deeper than

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:No. Basically. It was basically, you know, we're writing the book and we'rethinking about, Hey you know, if I was starting off my career in competitiveintelligence, you know, what would I want to know? But that's why I wrote thebook, right? I didn't write the book to make money or the book just as a way tosay, Hey, this is why we can help other individuals.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:And so a lot of companies, they think of CI is just, okay, we got these [00:06:00] battlecards and we got this presentationand it's. Some guy or girl sitting behind a desk, just researching and theythink you're James Bond out there and it's, and so the problem is a lot ofthese companies they don't they have these programs and they have thesebattlecards.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:They may have a presentation, but they're not talking in the sales and notgetting out and getting in front of customers. They're not getting primaryresearch. And they're just doing the bare minimum. I think that's sometimeswhen I say, you know, that quote is really about that is, Hey, there's CI tomake it effective. And to actually help your organization. Right. And so that'swhere I, that's why we did this

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:That, that made me think about the what Clara said on the show. And it was thatsometimes, at least for product marketers, CI is like, And this will be enoughto tell the line item and every time that it's considered a line item, theresults don't follow up with the initiative. So this kind of bring me to when Istarted in product marketing, I kind of thought about like battlecards and Iwas identifying like [00:07:00] competitoranalysis and battlecards as CI. How do you feel personally, when you hearsomeone saying, Oh, you know, CI is all about battlecards and nothing else,basically.

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:Was that something you're looking for? And what was your initial reaction?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:drives me insane. Really? If to be honest, if there was something that this isT, but if when people say that there might be something else in this cup,because it drives me

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:Pat gonna go through that wall!

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:intelligence is so much more than battlecards, but it's still happens. And I think the problem is a lot of company,a lot of CI people, including myself, when I start out, I didn't define what CIis. Right. So when you talk to everyone, competitive intelligence is adifferent thing. It's battlecards. It's. It's kill sheets. It's presentations.It's technical CI. It's helping sales reps and just being that person thatresponds to the competitive Slack channel. And so what I think the biggestproblem that we see a lot is people think, Hey, competitive intelligence isabout battlecards because that's what we've always heard.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Right. But I think when you gointo an organization or even when you're still in an [00:08:00] organization,you really need to define what competitive intelligence is. And moreimportantly, what competitive intelligence isn't. And I've done this in mycareer where, you know, when I first started my career. I was like, Oh, it'sbattlecards and it's cool. Little Harvey balls with this half circle. And wehave all these great circles and everything's amazing. And, you know, we're thebest and everyone's awful and it's just that. But then, you know, peopleask me other things and can you do this, can you do that? And so you reallyhave to define what CI is in your organization and what it's not. Right. Andwhat that other area goes on to.

Track 1: You wereHarvey ballin it when you first started out.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Yeah, it was Harvey

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Ball, and

Track 1: Harveyballin it hard, Pat. If y'all don't know what a Harvey ball is, just imagine acircle and you've, a section sectioned it out into like quadrants. And you'veassigned a a feature, one out of four. Right, four being the highest. So a fullcircle would be thumbs up.

Track 1: A quartercircle or no circle would be thumbs down, patrick was Harvey ballin [00:09:00] it when he started out in CI.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:I'm like, you

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:yourself a four, so you look amazing in a two.

Track 1: I did thesame thing.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:know

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:not realistic.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:Pat, we're really

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:grateful

Track 1: Everyone's athree.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:that

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:Eric really clarified that term for us because in a previous episode, hedropped the analogy, kiss your sister. It did have us

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:for a pause for consideration.

Track 1: yeah, Pat,we had Clara on, right? And, conversation about winning and losing, and I said,And tying is like kissing your sister. And I'm the only one out of four peopleon the call who's heard that saying before. We want to clear it up with anotherCI professional. Have you heard the term kissing your sister as itrelates to tying?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Never heard that, but Hey, you know what? Now, you know, you learn somethingnew every day,

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:right? So now I learned to me,

Track 1: Mara,shoutout to Mara you hit me up today, you've heard that saying, and I'm not theonly one in CI who's heard of it, apparently, so

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:I am not wearing [00:10:00] it.

Track 1: Pat, we liketo have a little fun on this show more than we're already having, so we have atorture chamber device, I modify it depending on my guest, started out as amessaging torture chamber. But now I've built it for you and RCI professionals.So the game is either, or we force you in a phone booth.

Track 1: You have topick one of these options and no matter how terrible they sound and painful,they make your heart. You just have to pick one to ride with.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:All right.

Track 1: your career.All right. So first one battlecards or making slide decks.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Ooh. Got to go slide decks.

Track 1: Oh OkaySomeone telling you that your only competition is a status quo or you don'thave any competitors at all

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:there like a, is it like a neither?

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:no you got it. You got to choose one.

Track 1: or a pass

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:in the nosage and I've been in both of those before. I'm going to have to saystatus [00:11:00] quo.

Track 1: That's fair.I would also pick that too. It gives them at least a little bit to chew on.Right. All right. Last minute competitor review or a last minute Intel requestfor a board meeting.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Ooh. I'm going to say the better of you because the board, the more meetingsare much more stressful. So then they're done

Track 1: High stakesin those, right? You have to analyze an ankle biter. Every single day you comein, or you, there's no one to analyze it all.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:that every day. I'm analyzing ankle biters. So if there's no one analyzing,there's no job for you.

Track 1: All right.Building a battlecard from scratch or having to redo an incumbent'sbattlecards.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Redo. I'll do redo. Cause there's probably still some, there's probably somegood information in

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:there. So you can still have some versus

Track 1: Even if Iwas the battlecard guy before you.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Oh, 100%. 100%.

Track 1: [00:12:00] All right, this one's a little bit moreintricate here. So would you rather have access to only one competitor, butit'd be extremely accurate, or you've got like a really broad, narrow scape ofyour whole competitor list,

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:So you only have one competitor or do you have a bunch of

Track 1: yeah. Onecompetitor, like your top competitor, very detailed, no one else. You have noIntel on, or you have a little bit of Intel or across your entire competitorbase.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:A little bit of Intelli Crossing Tire competitor, please. You can be asaccurate as you want, but you need that.

Track 1: But allright, Pat, we got one last, one last torture question for you. So yourcompetitor or your everyone else on your team is doing like a Slack onslaughtevery day. Here's a competitive thing. Here's a competitive thing, right? Thesame press release has been sent seven times in the same day, or no one'sengaging in Slack at all.

Track 1: And you'rethe only one to surface the competitive Intel yourself.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Oh, give me all the, give me all the requests. Give me all this stuff. I lovethat. That's what [00:13:00] I love. If youhave people in your Slack channel getting excited about competitiveintelligence, that's the best thing that happens.

Track 1: Alright,cool. Then, we can unlock you. You've done a great job today in the torturechamber, and thank you for being friendly with that.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Absolutely.

Track 1: Alright.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:Oh, go for it. I had a follow up question real quick, guys. Was looking at yourLinkedIn profile, Matt, and you had a former leader from Imperva, MattHathaway. And he was talking about your first six months joining the team. Andwhat was really unique about that is that it felt like what I was reading wasan anomaly for a lot of product markers in their first six months. No, ifyou're in a like scale up Start up don't know who you are, but somehow

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:within the end of the six months, matt mentioned You were being pulled intoactive opportunities from the sales team, being brought in on deals for productmarketers who don't even have the leisure of [00:14:00]having their sales team, know them by their first name can't go deeper intothat.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:What were you doing specifically to get so much influence within the sales teamthat they were like. like. you said here earlier, like they're requesting youto come on these customer calls.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:was actually really simple. Italked to them, like it was really simple. I just went out and I talked tosales and I talked to sales engineers and I asked them when I first got there,what do you need? What is your biggest problem with competitive intelligence?And then I solve that and it was really, it's really when I, and I think one ofthe things that can happen is when you can show a sales organization or sellinghearing that a, you can get stuff done, but also you can be a partner withthem. That's when they're like, okay, this is someone who's going to help memake my number, right? Someone who's going to help me make a deal, right? Thisis someone who's going to be. A, you know, advisor strategy. I think the bestsales reps bring in the people to help them out. And so that's when you look atwhen you become one of those individuals, I can be that person and just haveconversations with them and say, [00:15:00]Hey, this is what's happeninghere.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Or, Hey, I saw you post in thecompetitive Slack. Here's a little bit more example. Do you got 10 minutes? Ican talk to you about this, being that person and being front of sales andconstantly being in front of sales. It's a great way to have them start tobring you in and help them build on it. And so that's all I did is really justwent out and talk to them. I always say I'm a sales guy in a competitiveclothes, right? I used to, I grew up in sales and that's what I try to be. Ijust try to be a sales rep first, but

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:What is just one more thought. What does it mean being constantly in front ofthem? Is it like just slacking them every day? Is it like. You know, what'sthis? I look like

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:it's everything it's email, it's presenting, it's get in front of the salesreps, however way you can. Right. And you have to remember some sales reps, youneed, they need to see you. I die. Right. So go to QBRs. Some sales reps arecool with slack where they're okay. He's really into slack. Other ones onlylook into email. Some only care about, you know, the nailing sessions, right?So you need to be where they are. Right. Andso it's getting in front of them multiple ways. Right. I would say like whenyou have a message or you have a, [00:16:00]an ailment for sales, you haveto do it seven times, right? After the seven time, they're like, okay, Pat, Iget it.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Stop talking about this. Andwhen they say that, that's when I love it. That's when I'm like, yes. Okay. Ilove that because they actually understand it. I'm going to work

Track 1: Nice.

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:And how would you. If I'm a PMM and I want to have impact like that, or if Iwant to go into CI, would you take the best performing sales rep and try to befriends with them by helping them with like, how would you approach the overallYeah,

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:with the top sales reps. You canhelp them win. And have them talk about you, right? Have them say, Hey, thatwill help me out or gave me out. Right? Have them have that conversation. Alsowith the top SCs, help them as well. Right? Cause it's going to give repetitionand when the SCs to say, you should probably talk to this guy named Pat to asales rep.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:It's going to give that salesrep a lot of thought because, Oh, that sales engineer is helping make my money.Pat might help me make more money too.

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:that's a good point. Like internal reference, basically

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Absolutely. And [00:17:00] bring, so when I doan ailment sessions, like I do an Amazon, I bring on the top reps. I bring onthe top SEs to have a conversation with me about how they want to deal or howthey did this. And the reason why is because all the other reps can see, Oh, thatactually worked. Maybe we need to do it more.

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:exactly because, and I think exactly brought this point to another episode, butit's like everything you care about is your quota. So if you're able to havesomeone internally that will follow up. Would you along and help you fix thosepains on why can I win more deals like the top salesman? I feel like this just,it's, it just makes sense, you know, to work with you and then you just spreadyour name internally.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:100%. And it's, you know, we all talkabout building a brand outside of our organization, right? Like you guys doingthis with, We're Not Marketers. But I think one of the things sometimes PMM andmarketers don't do really well is build a brand internally, make that, makesure you have a brand in your organization that says, I can be a helper.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:I can do this or whatever youwant your brand to be. You need to build a brand both externally, but alsointernally too, as well.

Track 1: Do you [00:18:00] have friends outside of sales, Pat?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Yeah. I got friends in product management, customer success, marketing, allover.

Track 1: Alright, Iwant you to talk to me about some of those relationships, and how you'rebuilding those out.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, with marketing, it's building content, right? Helpingthem to understand the content. With product marketing, it's being a part ofthem. Saying, hey, this is your competitors and how we can help you out.Understanding, and this is how we can do this. With product management, it'seducating them on what's happening in the market. What's going on in themarket, what are our competitors doing? Analyst relations. Talking toanalysts, know, Gartner and Forrester. They love having conversations withcompetitive people. Because guess what? They talk to all the vendors too. Andso you can have a conversation. What are you hearing versus what I'mhearing? As well. And then alsocustomer success, I think is a really key area that a lot of people incompetitive intelligence don't focus on that we should, because they talk toour happiest customers, but they'd also talk to our angriest customers. And soyou can get a lot of information from a customer success individual on what'sgoing on or why a customer came to us or why customers leaving [00:19:00] us.

Track 1: Nothing,nothing's better than some good juicy churn intel, you know what I mean?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Absolutely.

Track 1: Oh, yeah,

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:A hundred

Track 1: that's cool.No, that's quick question for you. Are you handling the feature preference workyourself and delivering that to the product or someone else in the world doingthat?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:A little bit of both combination of

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:both.

Track 1: Justcurious.

Track 1: Awesome.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:what is future preference work for someone that has just hearing that for thefirst time I eat myself.

Track 1: Oh, youasking me or are you asking Patrick, but

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Oh, I'll let

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:don't, I know.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:I looked at Pat's eyes. I saw a little bit of disappointment. His eyes. When Iasked that question, he said, how you don't know what that word means.

Track 1: no, it's allgood. I mean, it's pretty simple and shoutout to the Ready For Launch crew forteaching me feature preference, but. You know, essentially, right. You've got amarket of competitors and they're all building features. It's very importantduring the product development phase to kind of [00:20:00]quadrant those out.

Track 1: There'sessentially four quadrants and find out what's in the wasteland features,right? The things that no one wants and no one's willing to pay for. Andessentially how does that compare obviously to your competition, right? Ifcompetitor A is just the best at one thing. But you notice that people aren'treally willing to pay for that, then it's good to maybe not put all your energyin, into that feature.

Track 1: So on and soforth. So that's the layman's explanation of it

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:oh, that's all I need.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:I always ask questions. If you don't know anything, like I'm always, everyonesays ask questions. I always ask what I'm like, excuse me. What does that mean?Why is that happening? Right. That's how you learn,

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:especially in competitive intelligence.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:Oh yeah. I'm like Pat, I'm like, I don't think I could even be on this podcastif I wasn't asking questions to begin it with. , I appreciate that safe space.A follow up for you, pat, is that, when I was reading your Amazon reviews ofyour book. Like I said I, did my research. You, you said it, you said, you gotit.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:I was like, I'm like, you got 18, five star reviews. I'm like, we're going totalk to you afterwards, but we need to get some [00:21:00]more reviews on our podcast. But one of the, one of the things that somentioned was that. Hey, for someone who is a product marketer, who is not adedicated CI person, this is a great book to read. You've mentioned a fewthings in our, in a conversation. You're like, Hey, If you're not dedicated toyet, talk to your sales, talk to your sales team. You also mentioned doing likean internal SWOT analysis of your CI program. If I'm a product marketer, who's looking to build up a CIprogram what are three things that I can do right now? To build that foundationfrom your perspective.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:I think one, it's, and I saythis every time everyone normally is if you're starting, if you're PMM andyou're trying to grow, don't boil the ocean, right? Don't take on too much. Ithink that's one of the biggest things I've seen. And that's where I've done ittoo, is where I've boiled the ocean.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:I said, I took on everything. Ohyeah. I'll build all these battlecards. I'll build all these presentations.I'll do all this stuff. And you get overwhelmed and you're also going [00:22:00] acrossall your competitors, right? And that brings me number two is if you haven'tdone this yet and you'd be amazed how many people don't do This tier yourcompetitors. I guarantee you three your tier one is three to five three to fivecompetitors That's probably 80 of your revenue of your competition, right tiercompetitors. Make sure you have your tier ones Then your tier twos, those aremore regional, maybe, you know, some ankle biters areas in that nature and tierthree are kind of those, all the rest of them that are there, but they're notas important what I woulddo if I was starting a competitive program, this way to every competitiveprogram I ever start, you focus on the tier ones, you just focus on the tierones.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:That's going to give you themost impact in your organization, right? And bring the way to get those tierones is both qualitative and quantitative. They look in the Salesforce,look in your Hubspot, see who you're winning against and here losing against,but also go out and talk to people, your product managers, the sales reps,everyone, and have those conversations and define those tier ones really well.And then the last [00:23:00] thingis really get out, get outside the box, go talk to customers, talk to sales, goon calls, go to conferences. I think one of the things makes a really good CIindividual is being out there, right? Cause that's when you hear what'shappening, right? You can. Readso much on a documentation on their website.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:You can read so much on, youknow, their doc site, but if you really want the best, go get outside, go toconferences, talk to sales, talk to customers and get in front of people.

Track 1: And not bethe old school ivory tower type, right?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Absolutely. Absolutely. You cannot be the only one. Doing CI, I think CI is aglobal source, right? You need tohave the entire organization doing CI and that's where it's gonna be reallypowerful.

Track 1: Yeah.

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:Is there a, is there any sign that like your product marketing team needs adedicated CI person or that you should jump into CI yourself within ourorganization?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:I [00:24:00] think that's

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:need to move. So I'm just curious.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:a great question. I think when organizations hit that critical point where theyneed a CI individual is when you can see the impact of how CI is affecting theorganization. Right. And so that means if you're doing battlecards, if you'redoing PowerPoints and you're seeing a big uptick in, Hey, this is helping. Andthis is being an area or on the other side where. You're seeing the companyhaving a drastic problem with losing two particular individuals. Then that'swhere I've seen companies say, okay, maybe we need a dedicated person for CIbecause either we're doing really well and we want to scale this, or we'rehaving trouble in this particular area and just giving one individual 10percent of their time to do CI is not worth it on that nature. And I think forindividuals trying to move into CI, I think it's looking for those areas,right? Like looking for, okay, we have an organization that's scaling, but youknow, We're seeing more competitors. We're seeing more area. Maybe it's timefor someone to take that [00:25:00] or there'sa problem and I can fix it. And those are two areas where I think it'd bereally helpful. If you have a problem and you can fix it, that's huge for thecompany. If you're scaling and you're having problems with understanding allthe competition, that's another area we can fix. So look for areas where youcan solve a problem and be that, and that's going to help you run CI.

Track 1: To have tocompete against Zach back in the day. He didn't know it though. I was sneakywith it.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:Oh, in Dropbox?

Track 1: That'sactually, and actually side note to that, piggybacking off what you saidearlier as a first time dedicated kind of C.

Track 1: I. role witha little blend of some other sales enablement stuff, it was like very criticalto not chase after all 20 competitors that I had back at old Lucidlink days.Like we had Dropbox, we had Box, we had Google drive eating our lunch. That'swhere the focus needed to be. And although of course, sales is coming in.

Track 1: I think weended up obviously having about 20 competitors, but what Patrick's noted, [00:26:00] tiering them out and identifying here'swhere we are losing our lunch, then you were prioritizing that energy there,you're able to see a big change. I can definitely validate that as more of aless seasoned CI pro than Pat.

Track 1: You guys gotany more questions?

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:Oh, Pat, I got one last big question for you here. And, You mentionedenablement a few times. And when I say a few times, I'm counting six ,

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Just got it.

Track 1: Counting!

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:and it feels like enablement is a black box for some product marketers. Andwhat I mean by that is that I have a product launch. I need to have anenablement session. It's a checkbox. I'm going to have 30 minutes where I'mgoing to talk about the product for 25 minutes, and I'm going to ask a Q and aI'm pulling salespeople by the legs to come into this session.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:No, one's excited about it. No, one's eager about it. No, one's engaged. Forsomeone like yourself, that's been talking about enablement sessions as someonewho's being brought in by salespeopleinto several active [00:27:00] conversations, how should product marketersbe thinking about enablement?How should they like, what are, what What is like a format that you've used to have an effectiveenablement session?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:I think there's two answers tothat question. So the first one is, that's one of the biggest problems I alwayssee with product marketers is, Hey, we're going to do an enablement session.It's gonna be 25 minutes. It's going to be, and this is why we didfeature X because it looked cool. And this is why we did feature B because itgives us, and it's boring. And we've all been through those boring salesenablement calls. Right? And that's the problem is like a lot of them are boring.Make them fun, make them interactive. Like sales enablement doesn't have to bethis like. Here's all the information. I'm going to dump it on you. Bestrategic and say, Okay, this is what we're going to do today.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:We're going to do, we're goingto talk a little about this product. Then we're going to bring in, you know,one of our beta customers, or we're going to talk about, you know, we're goingto bring the product manager or we're going to talk about sales rep whorequested this. And we're going to bring these people in and haveconversations, right?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Because they don't want to hearfrom Pat Wall for [00:28:00] 30minutes. They want to hear from their peers or individual people that are goingto help them get excited about it. Right? Okay. And so I think that's reallythe area that's key is making more exciting, make it more, you know, fun. Imean, like it doesn't have to be this is boring, you know, webinars all thetime. And the second thing is. You got to enable people how they learn, right?Some people learn by video, right? But also other people may learn by readingand understanding and doing that as well. Or some people by doing so, make sureyour nailing is touches every facet of how people learn, right? So some peopleare not going to learn from a webinar and so you might need to have adocumentation that they can read and they can scan over.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Other people might say, Hey,I need to go out and do this. I need to pitch this. So here's a pitch deck foryou, right? Make it so that they can be enabled how they learn, because ifyou just try to stick everyone in this one box. It's going to not going to bereally effective across the company.

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:That's a really good point, like doing the most to kind of bridging the gap andmaking sure that this is the right like structure and status to, to learn thatbasically.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:[00:29:00] Totally. And yeah, and I think justhaving one off enablement is also really poor. Make it so that's scheduled,right? Make it so that you have, you know, they know once a month they're goingto do a competitive session or once a month, they're going to do a product inone session and so they can know, okay, the third Thursday at 1 PM Eastern,it's going to be this time, right?

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:And that's really important. And they know that's going to happen. I

Track 1: you know, just beating that drum over andover again. Right. Give it to them once that's never going to stick. Likethey've got 10, 000 other things going on.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:mean, sales reps are busy, marketers are busy, we're all busy, we all have tonsof things to do. One webinar

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:I'm going to tell you right now, if I was one of your competitors right now,I'd be listening to this episode and copying everything you're doing and say,Oh, I'm doing this for our organization. Now. Thanks, Pat.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Know all the people doing my roles, it's all good. So that's the thing aboutintelligence. It's a really small [00:30:00]industry, it's a really small industry. So you learn and you meet everyone. And

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:That's really cool. That's it. That's it on my end to the guy we have anyfurther questions. If not I already previewed your book, Pat, but I'm curiousif there's any other projects that we should be aware about that. You've got,on the back burner.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:you know, I'm on LinkedIn a lot, posting some stuff. I'm going to actually belaunching a YouTube channel soon on just competitive intelligence.

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:Awesome. Wow.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:stay learned, stay tuned for that. But I have a question for you guys.

Track 1: All right.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:You asked me in the beginning is product marketing. Now I'm gonna ask you aquestion. Is competitive intelligence, product marketing.

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:Ooh,

Track 1: You knowwhat?

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:knew this day was gonna come

Track 1: You knowwhat?

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:Getting put on the

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:spot.

Track 1: I'm going tosay no. I've after I've learned enough about it. I think there's so muchsynergy in terms of you have to do a lot of research. You have to do a lot ofanalysis, [00:31:00] but what comes out of thatanalysis is a lot of times different things when you have the bandwidth forcompetitive, but I will say this, and I think these guys, you can vouch forthis, so I don't want to overstep on this comment, but even as we've built outthis pod and we've talked about what content to build and how to position andall that I've brought up.

Track 1: Thecompetitive part of it on several occasions and to help influence our productmarketing efforts, I think. So I am a firm believer that they are different,but product marketing to be really good. You need that element of CI in it. AndI think a lot of it you know, cause PMM has got a checklist of 50 things.

Track 1: It ends upbeing. Down in their bottom 40 that they actually get to. So long windedanswer, but no. And but PMM needs CI. I'm

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:pat. I'm like for one thing, I'm gonna be so excited once you get this YouTubechannel on, because I feel like [00:32:00] thisis gonna be like a freak college course on ci you're gonna deliver here. Thesecond one is that, no, cI is are not product marketers. I'm going to give anexample here from Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan is an incredible basketballplayer, terrible baseball player. I was in, even though that like thefundamentals of CI are baked in product marketing, I'm like, I will agree witheveryone on that too. So you're going to work different muscles from. As aproduct marketer and as a CI, and I feel like from our conversation, we'rehearing from you today is that there's different muscles that you're going toflex on more, and then you need to hone in on more to be an effective CIprofessional that you really don't get as a traditional product marketer. Sothat's my

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:I agree. I agree. And I hope you're comparing me to Michael Jordan

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:of basketball, not Michael

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:Without a doubt.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Okay. So we'll make sure we'll make sure I'm not

Track 1: calling youthe Michael Jordan of shoes. That's what I'll call you. That's the [00:33:00] most successful of all three of them.

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:Those are really two amazing responses. You guys should have left me a coupleof ammunition to answer, but yeah, I would say no as well. We had a couple ofCI experts like you on the show and I really feel like it's an essential partto kind of navigate. Again, what you do in product marketing, and I feel likeit's a bit unfair to putting it in product marketing because then it just goback to the narrative of this is a line item and you're not giving enough loveto that part. So I'm really seeing an evolved version of product marketing thatcan really enhance everything you're doing. Again, I just use a buzzword thatduring our messaging torture room, we want to move away from. I don't thinkenhance is a good adjective. But yeah, I agree that CI isn't in productmarketing.

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:That's my take.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:agree with all you guys. Yeah, a hundred percent agree. CI is not part ofproduct marketing, but product marketing needs some CI.

Track 1: Thanks forasking that. Cause we have not been asked that and you are a third CI, youknow, pro. I've had a lot of fun today. , thanks man for coming. It [00:34:00] was a great time having you on andlearning a lot more about how you're doing things over there. And yeah, thanksfor coming to another episode of We're Not Marketers.

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:Thank you very

gab_1_03-07-2024_153607:much,

zach-_1_03-07-2024_123608:Pat.

pat-wall-_1_03-07-2024_153608:Thanks, for having me.

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