No unemployed PMM deserves to feel like shit.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:[00:00:00] Hey, hey, hey, welcome to anotherepisode of we're not marketers. This is Zach, the sales water boy.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Yo, Eric Holland, resident Franken marketer. Before I pass it to Gab, I justwant to say I love it when Zach does the Fat Albert. Hey, hey, hey intro. Iget, I know it's going to be, I know it's gonna be a fire episode when we startlike that. So let me, uh, let me toss it to our last misfit, Gab.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:The, the bar is high, man. Like I don't have a, I don't have that, uh, uh,signature laugh or something. Uh, Gab Bujold sales deck intern still, stillagain, doing sales deck.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:But my man, you got the signature stash. And you know, I, I've been growingthis one out for how long? Three weeks. And it, and it still looks like I'm,uh, the JV basketball team [00:01:00] overhere. Compared to this stud over here.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:There's always, there's always someone with a better stash. My, my grandfather,uh, basically he had his stash for 76 years. He. He grew it at nineteen yearsold to look older, and then he just never

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:You said nine years old.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Uh,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Oh, 19.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Nine is pretty young,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Nine years old. Well,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Yeah, the

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:I'm like that man. Don't play.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:The

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:yeah, I don't know. I can't figure my mustache. It's in pretty full, but like.It just always wants to curl over my lip, even when I cut it. It's like twodays later, it wants to just hang out over my lip. So I just can't, I can't, Ican't figure it out. So listeners out there, if you want to drop me a note andgot any stache tips, I'll take them.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Sounds like Zach will take them too.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Oh yeah, I [00:02:00] will. I will embrace themwith open arms, but you guys, I know y'all are not here to hear about our,grooming

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:What?

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:We want to

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:We're not, we're not having a grooming episode? Alright, fine.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:hashtag. We're not bar hashtag. We're not barbers really quick though, but wewanted to drop this topic. And you all, man, something that's been sitting onour chest for a bit is that what it seems like PMM jobs in our, in our industryon the rise, noticing a unique trend of. We're helping my help or helping myhurt on LinkedIn of see an opportunity posted by either the hiring manager oryour potential future colleague on LinkedIn, everybody's so excited about it.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:They react to the opportunity. They're sharing it across their extendednetwork, and it's getting a lot of awareness and a lot of interest, a [00:03:00] lot of engagement. But then. You might seethat one comment of, Hey, I applied to this role. I didn't hear anything backor, Hey, like I applied to this and I got an immediate rejection. So we wantedto open up this conversation today to kind of explore what should properinterview and recruiting etiquette look like. Look like within our community,knowing what's been happening in the past 18 months, we spoken about this a fewtimes before with layoffs, with job transitions. Um, what, how should we betreated? what should companies consider in their own candidate experience tomake it, make it so that you still feel like you have your dignity when you'relooking for a job, especially when you're kicked to the curb 2 months ago. Oh,I'm speaking about myself, but this is not about us, y'all, but, um, reallywant to kind of open up to you guys [00:04:00]to as well and kind of get your thoughts.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Like. Of what's been shared here so far,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Well yeah, I'll start off with a little bit of a story, right? So, I think kindof like, if you take it back into a sales journey idea, first step is, youknow, let's qualify this person, let's see if it's a good fit, so. If you'rethinking about referrals and thinking about, like, re sharing, you know,someone's, um, open for work posts or sending in an application for a joboffer, uh, let's like, let's do that qualification process ahead of time.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:And when, um, I was working at a company, uh, Uh, essentially was done thereand looking for my next opportunity and was getting like an influx of, Hey, howcan I help? And let me pass you over to this person. Can I recommend you tothis person? And ended up landing in the lap of the direct [00:05:00] competitor, like number one or number twocompetitor for, um, the previous company I worked for.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:So like face value, he's expert in the industry, which, you know, there, thereisn't a lot of people there. Um, we've seen his body of works, which has donevery well. Um, and you know, he's, he's coming off like fresh and rearing togo, like doesn't need this big. You know, layover period where we can't startusing a skillset.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:So like a face value, it seems no brainer. And of course, got the interview,um, things went really well with the hiring manager, but boom, then I find out,Oh, Hey, people are, are a little squeamish about bringing on someone so closeto the competitor, right? And so I think early on, I shouldn't have ever evenwent through that process.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Um, I think I had three rounds of interviews or something like that, or at [00:06:00] least I met three people. Uh, four peopleactually, and we never had to waste that time. We never had to even like, youknow, get to know each other, you know, the hiring manager didn't need to getany egg on her face for, you know, bringing that situation up to the CEO, ifthey just like qualified early and, and figured out exactly.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Um, you know, who we can't have and who we, who we can't have. And of course, Iwanna throw that caveat out there that maybe when you're hiring, you're notplanning for your direct competitor to come into your hiring pool. But I, I dothink there's just like some general awareness in that story. I think, youknow, shines to me.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:As something that happened of just people not doing the due diligence and, andjust kind of taking in any applicant that passes through.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:that's an [00:07:00] interesting point aroundlike the competitor, because I've heard the opposite end of the story where acompetitor is eager to pick up a candidate because they worked at their topcompetitors company. So, it's, it goes back to what you're saying here, Eric,is that. Like what is the criteria of your candidate that you're looking forversus copying, the competition.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:But, um, Gab, I think you mentioned something before where you had a similarexperience where the difference being that you actually presented the caseinterview, right.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:case interview? Um,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Or like the, you know, the home, but what was it? Well, how do you describe it?Like take home assignment

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:oh yeah, the assignment. The,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Homework.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Good point. Yeah, the homework. Uh, I think homework is a light term comparedto what I had to do. like I, I like assignment, right? And I, I gave some tosome people. I feel [00:08:00] some of them,and I think there's, there's definitely a change where a lot of people thinkthat if you do assignments you should be compensated for your time. And Ibelieve in that. I, I just think that in some cases, this can be the differencebetween me and another candidate going to the next round, uh, rather do it.Even that I'm compensated or not, but, uh, you know, it's never ideal. But thisassignment thing, I spent at least 10 hours on and I asked at the beginningbecause I had, I had to do another assignment like a few weeks prior, a few monthsprior, and that one, they said, you should not take more than A few hoursworking on that, and I think I spend, two hours and a and a half, uh, on that.But this new one was really about like, oh, you know, as much time as you, youthink would be beneficial. And then he said, it really depends on the overallexperience of, of the candidate. I'm like, okay, but this is, is fluff at best.Like, you're not giving me [00:09:00] anyguardrails on what the end results should be. If I spend 35 hours on anassignment compared to someone that spent like five or seven, ultimately, myend results will be a lot better. basically, long story short, what I did is Iworked on that assignment, which was a colossal. I think it was a go-to-marketplan. It has like a launch cadence. It had a lot of information, like a deck of30 slides. And I needed to present another deck. So I work on that. I'm hyperstressed. give me a very tight deadline. So I work on the weekend. I make sureI do everything. I send it. And then it's like, okay, cool. Well, you're goingto be able to present it to us, uh, next Thursday. So I'm like, okay, cool.Fine. I practice.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:I take a look at stuff. I make sure I know everything. Uh, comes where it's,it's the time to have the call. And then basically Wednesday morning, [00:10:00] the day prior to me pitching it. hiringmanager calls me and say, Hey, you're not on the call right now. I'm like, whatdo you mean? The call is on Thursday. He said, no, no, no. You said it would beon Wednesday. I'm like, no, we, we chatted back and I said I would be onThursday. then he's like, okay, cool. Let me, let me figure out if we can havea time with the other PMM and the director of marketing. So I'm like, okay,cool. Fine. I get a call at like 8 PM, uh, on Thursday. So I never got the callback. And then at 8 PM on Thursday, I receive like. A message, a voice memo ofthe hiring manager telling me that, uh, I need to call him back. So I call himthen he's telling me, yeah, um, you know, we finally decided to go with anothercandidate. The only reason why I wanted to meet you was for, uh, just providingyou, uh, feedback on what you shared and just, just for basically being polite.So I spent. Okay. Thank you. than [00:11:00] 10hours was very excited to present what I worked on and then just got completelycut, cut the herb under my feet

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Well, yeah. And,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:That's

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:and he, he got Zach and I involved. We also spent time reviewing this work. Itwas a village not let down that day. And I remember,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Yes.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I remember getting that message and just being so infuriated of like, How doyou, how do you do this? And you know what, Gab, I also remember them wantingto put you in like the product launch.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Um, right. Like they want, yeah, they like, they wanted your core competency tobe about product launches. And was, was there like a positioning and messaginggo to market one? Something.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:there was, uh, there was one position on sales enablement and I think there wasanother one on, on positioning. I think it was [00:12:00]positioning and be messaging or something else. I'm not exactly sure,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I think it was strategy.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:on the

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I think it was, I think it was strategy related

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Yeah,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:positioning. Yeah,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:role and I was like, cool. Like my background right now was I was working withBDRs and SDRs.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:So sales enablement was a part of my job because I was going in depth. And thenI was just providing those insights for them to build out dot messages andstuff like that. And then I saw strategy. I was like, cool, this is perfect.This is great. And then she talked to me and she's like, well, I think youwould fit better in the launch department.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:I'm like, bro, I never, my launch experience is very little. Why are youputting so Like my, my weak angle compared to something I could bring in termsof value to your organization. So yeah,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I think I was just a complete mess. Like they didn't even, no offense to thecompany, but my estimation from the little I knew was they didn't know what thehell they wanted. Um,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:exactly.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:it made you work, [00:13:00] you know, what, aquarter of a work week, uh,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:yes,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:and

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:uncompensated,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:yeah, uncompensated and

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:even a gift card, nothing like

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:but, but, but we wanted to give you feedback because you were just so politewith us, like, fuck your feedback, like, I'm sorry to be like, so direct onthat, but it's like, you put that much effort, you're like, At this point, youshould have a clear idea of what you want to do. You should set up expectationsof like what that process like, like the idea that they didn't even set up theright date for you.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:That's on them. And that's a reflection of a poor candidate experience. Andlike, that's I'm sorry that you even had to go through that because I'm hothearing about it

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Yeah.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:all over again. I

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:And I, I don't know, like, it, it wasn't good for my, it wasn't good for likemy personal, uh, just, I don't know how to put it, but yeah, like, like myconfidence [00:14:00] and stuff like, I wasjust like, okay, so the reason why they didn't want to meet with me was becausemy, the work I sent it. Prior was not considered good.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:And then they just said, Oh, you know, we're just going to give him a pat onthe back and tell him, work on that again, buddy. So I was like, even then, Ithink the assignment was not in the right direction. The guardrails were notprovided. And just the, the human decency of telling me, Hey, this is how ithappened with the scheduling teams was just like a big mess altogether. Uh, nohate about the company. I think it's just a good way for me to, like, it wasjust a push of let's stop right now trying to, to search for or always gettingup to that last point where it's a technical task or an assignment, and thenlike a final offer. Um, so I think it was just a way for me to be like, Hey,screw it out.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:I'm going to start my own thing or whatever. But yeah, not, not a pleasantexperience.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Still fires me up. Zach, do you have any, [00:15:00]do you have any experiences like this? Yeah, absolutely. Decorum! Yeah,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:anyone listening doesn't know this, is that first few months when I went solo,Like, you know, you see, you see it. And this is an example of versus LinkedIn,where you see it like, Hey, this person's thriving. Like you are, you arebusing along, but there was a lot of imposter that I was feeling in the firstfew months.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:And, um, I was still like, like have had this client I'm working with, therewas always this kind of lingering, partially fear aspiration. I didn't knowwhat to call it at the time, but I would kind of look out for roles that I wasreally interested in. I said, Oh, I can definitely see myself in it. And it wasthis company that I was following for several years during like they're focusedon professional coaching. They based out of the UK and [00:16:00]San Francisco. And I was just like, Oh my gosh, like. I saw they had a seniorPMM role. It was like, that's the space I want to be, was in training. I wantto, I really love this company, what they were doing.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:And I'm fortunate enough, I had a mutual connection. I knew someone that wasworking at the, was working as a PMM, so we got connected, we're talking backand forth. She did caveat. It was like, Hey, like I want you to be aware.Things have been a bit chaotic here, but like I would, I still want you to geta chance to learn more about it and for you to make that decision for yourself.fortunate for her. She gave me that work. She got me a referral. I had therecruiter screen. If I knew this in advance, this is where everything wentdownhill. Y'all. sitting there talking with this person and they're like, firstquestion earlier. Oh, well, what is breaking to PMM? I was like, oh yeah, it'sa consulting, um, PMM consulting gig.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:I opened it. Oh, oh, consulting. Okay. So I was like, oh, like this is, uh, [00:17:00] And this is the recruiter I'm talking to,where their job is to like, help understand like, what you're looking to do andbe the face of the company. And then, um, they look and say, Oh, I see you werelaid off at Clarity. I was like, yeah, you know, like, it He's like, Oh, youshould have stayed at Dropbox. And I was like,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Wow.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Who? W w w what? X. I was at a loss for words. there was just no, like, therewas no tact. There

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:no decorum. That's

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:And this is a professional coaching company. I was like, you guys, you're noteven living to your guys in this moment. So, um, we go through the interviewexperience. I dropped the phone. And I'm like, gosh. I was feeling like crap.Like when, Gab, when you mentioned kind of [00:18:00]that experience, what you were talking about there. I was, I was like, damn,like. And I, and I took a hard look at myself. And I was just like, is this. Idoing this because I'm really excited about the role? Or is it that I'm afraidthat I can't do what I'm doing right now? then, um, the next day I get an emailback and they're like, Oh yeah, we want to move you forward. And then I replyback. I'll say, Hey guys, I really appreciate the time, but I'm deciding totake myself out of the process. And it was mainly because of that firstexperience, because I was like, yes, I am looking for a new opportunity, butI'm not begging for an opportunity.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:I know I'm qualified. I know I bring the experience to the table. And if youare going to treat me like that in the first recruiting experience, heavenforbid, I don't want to imagine what, like, the rest of the process or whatthat role or the company would be like. So then I just backed out. [00:19:00] Sent them an email, get a reply back neverheard from them again.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:And I was like, you know what? The feeling is mutual, but um, I

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Thank you. Judge you dodge a bullet right there. A hundred percent.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:dodged a bullet train.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:whack.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:I strongly relate to, to, to what you said about like being in the first fewmonths and, you know, doubting yourself. And I feel like that. Kind of impostersyndrome, never really leave, but it's, it's all like, I find myself sometimesbeing on, like, I'm seeing a company post a PMM position and then I check itout and I read this stuff, but it's always like, you know, it's enticing a bitto, to apply because, know, in that case, it's sometimes it's a bit more safe,you're like, what if, um, but I think just circling back and being, you know, Idon't think this is the right move right now.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:I should bet on myself a little bit more. Yeah. Um, is something [00:20:00] that I think a lot of, a lot of us thatkind of go through the, the consulting route, uh, might go through. And if,like it's a roller coaster, so if we can have more ups than down and dodgingthose kind of bad practice that make you feel like shit, uh, it will just be abetter experience altogether for both parties.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Yeah,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Yeah.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:fuckin won't end up like me. Who, uh, tries to do product marketing and ends upbeing the only marketer at his organization doing all the marketing. Andthere's very little product marketing. Oh,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:This is a great story. I, I would like you to, to, uh, to the audience a littlebit

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:yeah, this is actually even better because, Like, the story itself, when I lookat it, like, start to finish, is just I, like, I did not, I did not read theroom, did not read the red flags. Mackey just said,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:like, uh,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:sorry, go ahead, Gab.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:it's, uh, [00:21:00] the I have is, you know,those, uh, ski races and there was like a bunch of flags and you have to gothrough all of the flags. I feel like your experience at a company was likethat red flag, red flag,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Yeah,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Red flag.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:yeah, and I was just like crashing into all of them. Yeah, I wasn't even likeswallowing in between them, I was just like crushing them. Um, yeah, but thisis a wild story, and I think like, if you're listening to this, My hope is thatyou take a shred of it and say, don't be like Eric. So, uh, I was looking formy,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Shredded down the

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:yeah, yeah.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:So I was looking for my next opportunity and I had like a few kind of options Iwas going through and two were like, seem, seem pretty stable, uh, relativelylike strong leadership from what I [00:22:00]was getting through the interview process. So Then there was a third one thatwas just like super shaky. Um, definitely not established.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Um, didn't give great answers to my questions. Um, and, and basically fastforward what happened was they elected to go with someone else. And then cameback to me, I don't, I forget how long, a month or two, somewhere in betweenthere. And was like, we actually like to talk to you and offer you this job.And so, you know, general excitement took over instead of the question, like,wait, why was I passed over originally?

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:And why are you going with me now? And, um, I asked, I asked the latter, right?I just like, what made you change your mind type deal? Um, but didn't ask,like, why did you pick this other person? And [00:23:00]then. Um, I think probably just being again, glass half full type of guy, theanswer felt good enough and it was like, yeah, you're going to be working withher actually.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:So even though we offer her the job, we want you guys to be like kind of a tagteam. You handle product marketing and she'll be the growth. And again,excitement took over, didn't even think to ask the right questions. Well, howhave you established, you know, the working relationship? What, what are myexpectations supposed to be versus hers?

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Right. None of that was established. And, um, you know, again, I'm probablygetting a little long winded here, but fast forward into the actual first weekof the job or second week of the job. She's fired. Um, she was actually at atrip for the company in Vegas and was told she was let go that, um, during amoment when her flight got delayed and couldn't get home.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:It's a terrible moment,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:two [00:24:00] weeks, sorry. Two weeks afteryou started the job, she was

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Not even, so like I started on a Monday, she was fired that following month. SoI

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:What?

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:for a week and then she was let go while she was at an event and her flightwas, you know, delayed. So she was just chilling in a random airport.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:And you're just sitting there that you're going back home without a job,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Yup.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:despite being on a work trip. Well, now. Former work trip. Wow.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:and put it, put this, put this in perspective, you know, she was there like twomonths, maybe three months. Like, I don't even think I have the full 90 daysunder the belt. And we know, which is fine. You know, like when you're, whenit's like. Hey, this person isn't for me this, you know, they're not workingout, but, but, you know, when, when I only was able to make it nine months andthen there's no one in [00:25:00] place, uh,you know, it makes you question that whole thing.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:So yeah, like red flag going into the interviews. Um, right. Like red flagcoming out of the interviews, red flag going into the, into the work. Andultimately, you know, it wasn't a good experience for me. It wasn't good for mymental health. Wasn't good for my partner's mental health. Um, and you know, Ithink.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:There's always, there's always the silver lining and like, I'll never take thatexperience back in terms of what I was able to learn and, uh, the challenges Iwas able to like overcome, but if you were to, to, to, um, you know, dial itback and, and make the right decision, I think I would have never elected, youknow, to work there probably would have never elected to make it through thethird interview.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Um, and I, I just think it's a, uh, [00:26:00]it's a valuable lesson to everyone. What happens if you do get too eager to,uh, fill that, fill that job opening that you need to fill. And if you're notholding these other, um, employers and their HR team account accountable duringthe process, you'll end up in a situation very similar to like what I justdescribed and, uh, you know, you'll be looking for your next opportunityprobably shortly thereafter.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Um, This is, this is bringing me back, man. This is bringing me back to likesome discussion we had. And,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Yeah.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:okay, all right. This is, this is how they want to play it out. Uh, I thinkit's, uh, I think it's a good question to be like at first, Oh, cool. So PMM isgoing to be collaborating with growth or with a growth role or growthmarketing, whatever. But then you have to understand, like, expecting you tolike, make everything work together and [00:27:00]just focusing on like leads? and like revenue and results and if this is their,their standpoint on the

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Can you hear me? Okay. Five. Six. Eleven. Zero. Zero. Zero. Zero.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:positioning larger strategic initiatives that can necessarily always be, uh,like doing. Just supporting and always being like not the police, but justsomeone that will help handle the growth as well. So I think it's uh, alwaysthat question of we're just talking back to how much does that organizationunderstand product marketing and What KPI of success are they expecting from meas well?

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Yeah, dude. It's like, it's a,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:I

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:it's our, sorry, Zach, just want to say this last point. It's like the root ofour conversation, you know, the root of our podcast, like they clearly did notget product marketing. And from day one, when they were hiring for productmarketing, they didn't know when they got their [00:28:00]first person in, they still didn't know when they got their second person in,they didn't know.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:And, um, it's probably safe to say they still don't know. Right. And

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Yeah

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I think that's like, just wanted to point that out. The root of. Not just thisconversation, but all of our conversations is like, you can't just go hiringproduct marketing and not actually do do the due diligence and figuring outwhat you're hiring for and why you're hiring.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:exactly. And I think it's two, just two things that stick out from what we'resharing here so far is like one, like there's, there appears to be a low levelof trust employers when they're hiring product markers. I'm not saying allemployers, but from like the experiences we're sharing now is that level oftrust, meaning like, can this person do the job? don't know. So I'm gonna putin some 7 interviews. Um,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:minimum

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:minimum. [00:29:00] you're going to do, you'regoing to do a take home assignment and I'm going to grill you on every aspectof it. full well that don't work at that company, so you don't have the samelevel of and access of information about our company that we do. Um, so like,that's, that's one thing that comes in. That's really frustrating in thisenvironment of like. looking for an opportunity and I know I have theexperience. I'm a smart, capable person and I can pick this up and I know howto do this job. And it goes to the second point of just like, just, I feel likethere's this fallacy in the market today where you have to have the perfectcandidate, like, and if not about, okay, let me hire the person that I know isqualified and can grow into this role. This person has to have eight years ofproduct marketing experience. They have to have [00:30:00]led a team for four years. They've got to have 12 years of industry experienceand, um, manufactured goods. And it's not to say that that person doesn'texist, but I feel like this is such an emphasis on quote unquote, the perfectcandidate, mainly coming from a place of, I don't really know what we'relooking for. That it just creates a really poor candidate experience. Like,imagine, like, for us three who never really done a podcast before, imagine ifwe each interviewed each other a hosting position for podcast.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Oh, man, I don't even, yeah, I don't even know what I'd be asking.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:That's a

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:What questions do we have?

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Oh, I know one question. One question. Can you use Descript?

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:barely.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Do you know how to, do you know how to do [00:31:00]transcripts and Descript? Because I don't. So you're already ahead of me if,if, if you're hired.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Here's another one for you. Are product marketers marketers?

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Yeah. That's the, that's the key one. Uh, here's another one. Where are youseeing your podcast in five years?

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Well, and, and you know, what is that? What's interesting when you say that islike finding out what you want. Like, I, I think there's also a naturaltendency to be like. This is my perfect candidate, right? This is what I wantthem to be. But like, where is your like, least, or like, like lowest qualifiedcandidate?

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:You know what I mean? Where is like, hey, if you give me this, that means I canshape them to this, then get them to this, and then after that, they're myperfect candidate. Like, I, I'm, I'm wondering if that work ever does get done.I think it's probably a good question to ask someone in that [00:32:00] position, because I just don't know.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:But I feel like, you know, when you write up that job description, it's like,you know, here, here's the person I want. And then they have their like one onone meetings with the HR person and they're like, this is the type of personyou need to bring me. And then they'll have their like, you know, a few weeksor a month, a few months later when they're not getting the right candidate.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:It'd be like. This is the type of person you need to give me, but I don't thinkthey're ever like, here's what I need them to be, but here's where they canstart at. Let's go find, let's go find them. Um, I just don't know if that'shappening.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:I don't think so. And I know some from a past life, I worked closely with therecruiting team and really good recruiters know how to set expectations oflike, okay, this is what the market looks like. This is what you might beseeing, and this is what you should expect at this. I don't think thoseconversations are happening because if I remember from our last conversationwith Harvey, it's like 65 percent of [00:33:00]PMMs have less than 5 years Um, well, some of these roles are maybe it might beasking for more. So, like, like, how is that number of years experiencerelevant to what you're looking for for that person to do? Um, I do understandto some degree, having some years experience might decrease the ramp time ofgetting on board. But another reality is that a lot of companies today are notproviding LNB programs.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:They're not providing training in the, like, Heartbeat said it too, in the lastfour years L& D budgets have been If you go into like some of these privatecommunities today, like haven't been to PMM camp, but my proxy has been to exitfive. A lot of us are doing our own LND. We're asking questions.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:We're getting answers to as well. We're discussing back and forth and we'repaying for that. the company might [00:34:00]be expensing that, but there's many examples where a lot of like candidates outthere are taking on their own learning to become more proficient. And then tohave a company and say, like, like, Gab, to your point, why'd you choose thisheadline versus a fuck?

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:I don't know. Because it seemed like the most appropriate headline. Like, thisis why you hired me to do this job. If you don't trust me. And doing that, Ican show it to you, but if you're going to question what, I don't know, maybethat's just the history of being a product marketer, I guess, but like, it's,it's just, I don't know.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:I'm just frustrated about it.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Oh yeah.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Don't mind me.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:it's a fair point, but I didn't understand the, don't understand the, uh,different facets of the role. Like if you are at four years of experience, whatare you expecting to get when you are at eight years of experience? And then

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Yes.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:asking, for example, for eight years of experience for a PMM role, but you'reasking for four years of experience for a senior PMM? there's a lot of [00:35:00] dissonance in those different roles. And Ijust think that, when you start digging, when you start asking those questions,really similar to the work we're doing with messaging and positioning. Youknow, when you try to ask, but why, and you just dig a little deeper, youunderstand that it's crumbly at best. They

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Yeah.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:why they put that number. And. This is making me think about two stories. westill have time?

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Yeah, we do.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Yep. Okay. Two stories. Very quick. The first one I did an assignment. This isthe one I talked about of like two, two and a half hour. this one, basicallythe, person, I think it was a PM asked me like, Hey, so what, uh, how are youplanning to do a market research? And then I'm kind of bringing like my initialideas in terms of tactics as well. We'll do it. But then he's. Starting to askme like, okay, but how exactly would you do it? And then, you know, I stayednot [00:36:00] surface level, but ask stufflike, okay, well, depending on the data you have, do you have your own data?

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Do you have like first, party data that you're looking for? And you're able tobring surveys or interviews and then you said, yeah, but let's say you want totackle this new market in the U. S. So I felt like it was, they didn'tunderstand what they were trying to target and they were expecting me to givethem the answer. Well, as a PMM, yes, you need to understand the context, butyou still need to have that, that kind of direction provided a bit. So that waswhat I was like, I cannot give you the end results, right? I'm external. Idon't know your industry as much. And even if I did. Like, there's a lot ofdifferent factors that I don't have under my control. So that's the firstthing. The second thing is, we talked about people are hiring pmms becausesometime it's trendy, and I don't know if you guys remember, but once I kind ofsent you a message and I was like, guys, I think I have an amazing opportunityfor us to do consulting. And it was someone that posted a job for a productmarketing, uh, role. Frank. [00:37:00] I, Ijumped on the call. I started asking about the role, and then I

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I remember,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:you need is a,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I remember,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:what do you need is a. you know,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:yeah.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:you don't need

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Yeah. You needed a, you needed an intern in the, uh, like administrativeassistant. Yeah.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:understand the strategy part, but can you execute campaign? Can you bring meleads? I'm like, bro, what the hell are you talking about? And then he was, I'mlooking for a PMM. I'm like, how much are you expecting to pay them? You saydependent experience. I told him, okay, you know, it's 8, 000 USD per month.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:On average for X amount of a year of experience. He looked at me like, Shellshock or whatever, like that much. I'm like, you should, you should know thesethings when you

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:that much, how much are you going to offer?

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Exactly. So I think it's just, you

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Minimum wage

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:minimal [00:38:00] minimal Wage plus equity,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:for your cliff.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:And I think,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:four years or 0.2%.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:you know, from this conversation, I've, I've picked up two like big things islike one, you just have to get so specific with what you're looking for and noteven just from like, you know, the job description, but like what type ofperson do you need, you know, fit this role? What type of person do you need towork with this hiring manager?

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:What type of person do you need to work cross functionally with, you know, theproduct team, the marketing team, the customer success team, sales team, youknow, and even what part of product marketing do I need them to focus on,right? We don't, we don't have to bear the ocean here, but product marketers doso many different things and can specialize in so many different things.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:As opposed to specializing in a channel, right? Um, so what part of [00:39:00] the product marketing function do you needthem to be like an expert at? And I think the second point that I'm picking upis like, Are you hiring someone to tell them what to do? Or do you want to hiresomeone to tell you what to do? And I think you make that distinctioninternally.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:And then as us, as candidates need to make that distinction, like, do we wantto get bossed around and get told to what to do, or do we want to be leadingthe charge and, and, you know, thinking for ourselves 90 percent of the time.And if those

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:The best businesses. Should choose a lot. Sorry, sorry that I cut,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:no,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:point,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:you nailed it.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:the ladder,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:You nailed it. But I just think that's like, they have to be honest withthemselves, right?

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:That hiring manager has to look themselves in the mirror and say, Do I wantsomeone to come in and tell me how to do X, Y, and Z? Or do I want to be theperson that's like hardcore coach, hardcore [00:40:00]mentor? Mike, you know, I don't want to use the micromanager, but like, um, doI want to be that type? Or do I, do I want someone to come into a meeting andbe like, no, we're not going to do this because X, Y, Z, we're going to dothis.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:And I plan on doing it. You know, ABC, I think that's, you just have to behonest with yourself and if you are, I think you're going to get a candidate,like you're going to nail your candidate and you guys are going to have areally nice working relationship. But if you're like, if you say, yeah, I wantsomeone to come in here and do positioning work and then like the CEO all day,every day is like, no, that's not how I envisioned the product.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Blah, blah, blah. You know, like that, that's not going to get anybodyanywhere, you know? So I don't, I wouldn't even say just trust. I would justsay, are you willing to let someone tell you what to do? It's like, I thinkbaseline for me.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:the two things that come to mind for me. It's like, one is that. Like, onceevery few years, well, not once every few, [00:41:00]once every few months, someone will quote Steve Jobs to justify why we're doinga strategy, then they'll, for whatever reason, we forget that Steve Jobs alsosaid, why would you hire a, Uh, start on a player to then tell them what to do.So like, I think Eric, that's your point. That's like the example I think aboutis like, why, why are you going to hire? Like you said, I want someone to leadthis function, then proceed to tell them what they need to do. Like then itkind of defeats the purpose. Because. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know,man.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:I'm just like, it shocks me.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:except, except if you're trying to hire for ego, right? Oh, I want to have Xamount of people in the company. I feel like some, some founders, someentrepreneurs are like that, that like, Oh, you know, I want to have X amountof people working under me, but it's like, you will never get that far. Likeyou need A players to, as you said, tell you what to do. [00:42:00] I didn't remember it was a Steve jobquote, but that's very relevant. I.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:It's

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Sorry, Zach. Go ahead, man.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:no, I, I think it comes back to this. Like, is it, it's a, it's a right. Like,Eric, you said earlier, it's a right with the hiring manager, a right fit withthe hiring manager. Like, are you willing to hear their perspective on to dothings, but go ahead. That was what I was going to add.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Yeah, like, like, yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent, like opinion wise,um, having a, you know, remove as much ego as you can and building a team ofpeople who know better than you and, you know, are willing to push those, um,those expertise is, is better than like being the leader who like doeseverything and then delegates.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I do a hundred percent believe that. However, if you are that person who wantsto be, you know, king of the hill [00:43:00]and delegate, you have to acknowledge that and like not ever interview one ofthose people who have ambitions and are looking, you know, to really drivechange and plug holes where they see them.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Like you need to be very hyper focused with your entire process. Looking forthose people who, you know, need, need guidance and then like can execute fromthere as opposed to building out the strategy and like testing things out andhypothesizing. Um, I do think there is a recipe where that can be successful.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I just, you know, if you're not willing to just look yourself in the mirror andacknowledge that and like, you know, think that you should bring on an A playerand tell them what to do, that's just silly, right? Bring on, bring on, bringon the pieces that you need. Um, but you just got to get honest with yourself.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:And then if you're not honest yourself, you know, there won't be trust in thatorganization, kind of like what you [00:44:00]were saying, Zach, is like, that's what I think leads to lack of trust is, youknow, you wanting to build a Lego tower yourself, um, you wanting to build itwith help or you don't want to build it at all.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:And just have someone else do it type deal. Um, I don't see enough of that.What

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:you're hiring for. I think that's like, just like the breeding ground of, uh, Iwas going to be a poor candidate experience, like down front. And I think thisis why it's a bit more promising. I see now that jobs are being shared inprivate communities. There might be one con where if someone's not part of acommunity to get visibility to that, but it seems like, and I might be wrongwhen I say this y'all is that what I've noticed so far is that when you are ina private community, it's a bit more smaller, it's a bit more niche arounddifferent, [00:45:00] those, that persona. Andyou're more likely to be talking to the hiring manager directly versus beingthrown into a recruiting pile where you might be looked at. If you are lookedat, you're being tarred and feather in the process. I'm not sure what you guysthink about that, but like I, I've seen that as being one

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:a great, well,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:just sitting there, just shaking,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:shaking on the LinkedIn,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I know what our

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:LinkedIn

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:art is going to be this week. Gentlemen, um, dude, I, I, I agree with, I wouldlike, I would agree with you. Um,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:example wise being Andy's community shout out healthy competition. Um, a lot ofthose jobs are focused with more of a competitive intelligence [00:46:00] lens. Um, so I'm like, I would say generalPMM stuff definitely leaks through, uh, but there's about 130 people in there,I think 150. And it is like, if I want to get directly to the hiring manager, Iknow I want to look in that job community.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I don't want to look into the other one that has 50, 000 members. Um, I don'twant to go, you know, on some other like board where there's a lot of noise anda lot of other people I find, like you said, Zach, those small tighter knit.Even niche year community setting

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Yeah,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:will get you direct line to the person you need to talk to and impress andultimately get the buy in to get that job.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:exactly.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:yeah, totally advocate for that.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Yeah. It feels like more of a genuine relationship. Oh gab, go ahead, man.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:No, but, uh, I just wanted to say that I fully agree with [00:47:00] you. And, uh, yeah, I think, I think thoseprivate communities.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Gap.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Help you a bit

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Gap. You can't, we can't have three of us agree on the same topic. You have to,you're going to have to. And potentially

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:percent. Uh, you should go

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:There we go

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:over a hundred thousand people and make sure like no one hear about you. What Ilike is it's almost like mini referrals, right? Like if I

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Yes,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:if I'm a good, consistent member of that community, hey, I know this guy. We,we spoke on a few subjects. We had coffee chats. it's good opportunity forreferrals. So I think it's always like, always on a stronger standpoint in thatcase. Um, something that I feel like is at least my understanding is that whenlooking for a job, it's very easy to fall under, Oh, let me just very similarto outbound a little bit. Oh, let me just go play a huge [00:48:00] volume play and try to make sure that, youknow, I, I take a hundred percent of, of the shot I can. But if you do that,it's not relevant and then you're just making, you're just reinforcing those,those recruiters of still treating us like numbers instead of like realcandidate and really providing like, I won't ghost you, I'll still follow upwith you, I'll make sure to make you understand why you are not the rightcandidate. Um, so I think the first thing is you should have basically the ICPversion of the type of companies you want to work with. And then you also needto understand what's your, and this is circling back to my growth marketingdays, but what's your not star metric here. And like the more I'm, I'm kind ofin my professional career, the more I realize I want to have fun.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Right. So what's my, what's my fun meter. What may be fun would be my NorthStar metric. So I want to work with a company that is doing great campaignsthat is understanding the PMM role that is like just a bunch of factors likethat. So I [00:49:00] think. If as a candidate,you're able to that extra work, ultimately this should make you feel less likeshit, I guess. last thing on my end would be if you're unsure of which,community to join, you can always subscribe to the Dying Front for thisnewsletter where we're always sharing insightful stuff and potentially jobroles. So I needed to plug, uh, Sorry.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:oh

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:mate is the official beverage of we're not marketers.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:It's still

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:the uh

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:sponsorship.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:the unofficial beverage

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Yeah. The

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:remarked if

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:officially unofficial is what I meant to say is, yeah,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:we're looking for one more sponsor That could be you. Join the newsletter. Bro.We're trying to get the entire [00:50:00]category, not one brand. We want the, we want the industry to sponsor thispodcast. So you're my TV.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:in one infomercial.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:And we're going to interview you and we're going to only look, we don't reallyknow what the criteria is, but we know we want the best year of Ramaté andwe're not going to take anything less than

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:and we know what's the, we know what the bad yerba mates are, so we'll knowright away.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:You know, one last, one last, uh, serious note before we wrap it up for the dayfor anyone who makes it through our little, little fun time there. I've beenfortunate enough to be in my first contracting gig, right? And it's more of afull time ish, [00:51:00] like type rolewithout the, the, uh, the, all the paperwork, so to speak, and the governmenttracking.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Um, I think it's like a unique thing and something I would have not thoughtabout in the normal hiring process, but if you have the opportunity to havethat conversation with, with the hiring team. Um, you know, I think itdefinitely de risks things on both ends. If you're like, Hey, let's try out afew months together or, you know, whatever duration of time you feel isappropriate.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Um, I think it's really benefited both myself and, you know, Clue at thispoint, where we've been able to try each other out, feel each other out, seewhat the room is like. Um, you know, again, without the, like the huge riskthat comes, you know, comes with it. And, uh, you know, I think on their, ontheir end, I don't want to speak for them.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:So take this to Grants Hall. But I think like the onboarding and getting [00:52:00] someone in is a lot easier that way too,than the, the other way around. I'm sure the HR lift is a little bit lighter.So, uh, if, if you're open to it and, uh, the company you're, you'reinterviewing with is open to it might not be a bad suggestion to leverage thatas part of your, your talk track,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:For

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:And Eric, that's a really good point. I can, I can add to that further is thatthis is about, what is this? This is like year one of Ramaté. My consulting andI'm going to share, like, what, um, really good friend here, crystal, uh,crystal crowd shared with me a year ago about this time was that when I waslooking for a role and just going left and right interviewing for roles andjust not hearing responses, she was like, the back door.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:And that was like freelance consulting, contracting. And she told me thesethree things. She was like, Zach, first create an LLC. It's going to cost youlike 200 bucks. If you go [00:53:00] throughink authority to open up a business checking account. Fortunate enough. I livedacross the chase bank, right across the street, back in San Francisco.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:And he's just like three, reach out to five people a day in your immediatenetwork. And, um, that was game changing advice because it was through thatconversation that I got connected from someone with my media network and. I'mstill working with them as a client today and like air to your points, likecoming as a, as a contractor, um, mind you, that might be an easier way toapproach it because there's less risk.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:You get to build that relationship. If it doesn't work out. you've this moreclear expectations and one benefit that's been really great for me, that's likeoperating as my own LLC, get to set better parameters as to what thatengagement should look like. like, if in any point, if the contract does end,not going to get that random, like Thursday call and be like, Hey, we'reletting [00:54:00] go. Yeah. At least got tolet me know a month in advance. So that gives me about three weeks to cry. Andthen like a week to go find the next opportunity,

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:ratio. Good ratio.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I'd just be, I just,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:the three to one.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:I'd just be sending you boxes of Amazon, Amazon boxes of tissues during thosethree weeks,

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:But, uh, it's, it's, but I think like this, what's been really cool about thesilver line, another silver lining of the last like 18 months for us, y'all isthat, um, getting more creative of identifying opportunities. I can't imagineif it wasn't for being like, I don't think this podcast would be Have existed.And now we are VC funded, um, with 997 or 993 revenue for FY 25.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:plus, plus our, plus our, Our swag. So we're, we've we've surpassed a thousandnow.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Exactly.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:a thousand.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:our [00:55:00] swag. We're, we're past athousand in, in revenue.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:y'all. We are,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:baby.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:are worth one. Y'all, we worth one PMA certification course. Look at that. Lookat that.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:You think they'll give us, do you think they'll give us a three for one

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Oh, that would

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:if we just submitted We're not marketers.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:certified.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Yeah. Yeah. It's just one, one of us. We just have three bodies. It's allright. I'm, we're gonna, we're gonna try it. That's our, that's our other adsponsor for this week, by the way. PMA wanted on this one. So that was, thatwas, um.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:He got your shot out.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:But yo, this was, this was a, this was a great Monday conversation. We normallydo our stuff on Wednesdays, but this was a cool, cool way to spend it.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Um, boys, you got anything else you want to, you want to drop for, for our,Skeleton [00:56:00] crew before we dip out.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Uh, keep rocking y'all. I don't know.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:And, um, it's, it's hopefully it will say in the title, we still have to editthis episode, but no one, if, if you're unemployed or you're looking foropportunity between roles, like you don't deserve to feel like shit in thismarket. Um, and for someone who's been through it in the highs and lows of it,always reminding yourself of what your worth is and that. Then I think thatpeople have said this before, but I'll say it again. You got to tell yourselfthis is like, you're not your job and don't let anyone make you feel likeyou're your job. And if someone hits you up and says, you should have stayed atX company versus laid off. Fuck them. Um, we out.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Yeah, for real. You're, you are a, uh, you are a gem. Remember that?

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Yes. And one, and then one last note is that I understand that when we do getlaid [00:57:00] off and we want to send acongratulatory, congratulatory note for the company and their time. If you justever want to vent. Just send, just send us the email being like, and pretendwe're the employer, but like, sometimes it's just good to get it off yourchest. You know, Night City does have a place, but sometimes it's okay just tobe like this fucking sucks. And that's why you can join our newsletter forbecause it won't suck and

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Every Friday morning, 8 a. m. Eastern.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:you can reply back and vent to us and we'll reply back to you.

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:Exactly, exactly. Our VC backed owners, new owners, absolutely want us topromote it every episode. So, sorry about

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Yeah.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Yes, might see a little promo there, but um, don't hey, that's what keeps,that's what keeps the lights on for us and gets us better microphones. So thankyou to our sponsors,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Yeah.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:our sponsor,

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:Yeah.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:hopefully

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:everyone, [00:58:00] everyone knows we are, weare going for the, for the upgraded mics this season.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Oh, yeah.

eric-holland_1_07-22-2024_173022:That's what we're doing. All right. Y'all thanks for joining us for anotherepisode of we're not marketers.

zach---he-him-_1_07-22-2024_143022:Hey, see you guys

gab_1_07-22-2024_173021:you. Ciao.

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