[S2, EP#9] Our target audience is... everyone?

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:[00:00:00] hey, you guys know what it is. It'sanother episode of we're not marketers. This is your boy on the track, ZachRoberts. I'm going to pass it over to our next fiery co host before we talk.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Yo, what's up, Eric Holland the Franken marketer, still seven months in.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:sounding like Batman on the track

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:I know I'm working on working on getting a deeper voice. I may have just hitadolescent stage here. Gab, what about you, man?

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Gab Bujold sales deck intern still thriving with the other two misfits.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:and thriving indeed. And for all of us, for all of you who have been, uh, a newor old audience, we're going to talk to about a topic [00:01:00]that's near and dear to your heart. Imagine being in your organization, leadinga new product launch, and you want this to be successful, but some leaders,someone from product wants to make sure that you include every single person inthis launch.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:You know what we're talking about? We're talking about target audience. And.Through this conversation, we're going to talk about the horror stories thatwe've personally seen. What's the better way of approaching target audiences?What are some few things of how we can navigate this situation here too?

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:So, uh, yeah, it's like, I'm just curious from each of you. Like, when you hearthe word target audience, What horrors come to mind?

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Um, almost every time I go to a homepage for a B2B website, I feel, Cause I canimmediately tell when [00:02:00] they've donereally tight. Work on who they care about and who's going to buy the productversus when they let the CEO get in their ear and they're trying to communicateto five different audiences in the single sentence.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:Yeah, maybe the easier way is to just say, make work more human and then, youknow, include everybody.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Oh yeah, that's, that's, that's a good idea. All inclusive messaging.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:All right, I'll stop Gab. your take?

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:I mean, Eric pretty much like nailed it out of the park. It's like, this iswhat I'm hearing on a daily basis. Oh yeah. Or, or target audiences, XYZ andeverything. Um, and then the XYZ translate into, okay, so you're trying totarget eight different industries at once, you know, with a team of eight. to15 people. Um, but yeah, I would say it's just, uh, [00:03:00]I think it's just part of the education that PMM should handle. Um, but it canat least create some pretty interesting conversation.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:But like, what really, what's the problem with that? Like, come on, let's,let's, let's think about it. Like, uh, let's think of target audiences, like abasketball team. Like you don't want a whole team of point guards on your team.Like you, maybe you want to, you want different mimics. I'm a founder.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Ooh, are you trying to argue? Is that what you're saying? You wanna, you wanna,you wanna mix?

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:No, I'm trying to understand from. The perspective of a CEO founder, like if Iwant to build, recreate the nineties dream

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Mmm.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:like it'd be great to have all Michael Jordans,

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Uh.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:you got to have your support players. You got to have the periphery.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Well yeah, well then I'll, I'll, I love that analogy then. Any sports analogy,we'll stick with basketball since that's what you tossed out there. Right? Thecenter. Let's say he's a [00:04:00] star. Heneeds to know why it's important for the point guard to have the ball. And thepoint guard is the one who gets the ball in the first place, right?

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:So we gotta start there. We gotta, we gotta get that point guard hyped up aboutthe situation before we ever get to the center. And there has to be some threadbetween, Hey, why does this point guard want to have the ball versus why doeshe not? Does the center want to have the ball and connect the thread to watchthat point guard dish the rock, you know, to Kareem in the post and

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:So it sounds like when you're, Oh,

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:no, no,

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:I was about to say sounds like you're playing to different strengths. And soit's like pretty much a, like, yeah, it's great to have those differentplayers, but the key, the caveat being is that. You're playing to theirstrengths. You're not going to see Shaq moving the court, the ball up thecourt.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Yeah. And,

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:and, You know, he, he's, when you're teaching just to play. Right? He's goingto [00:05:00] care about part of that playbecause it's focused on the part about him. He doesn't care about really all ofthe rest that's going on, but there needs to be that thread ultimately to whydoes the point guard need to run this play a certain way?

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:And how does that translate to the center? And, you know, dunking that shit,maybe breaking the backboard.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:Hey, we're here. We're here for that. But it's so like you guys, like, so thenwhat's, what's the problem? Because like, again, we all, we are all productmarketers. We've all been in the spaces where we know why having a specifictarget audience is important. Effective to go to market. But like, how come,like, like to your, to your point, like Eric, like, how come we are seeing likesome bad messaging on websites that say like, Hey, we are the all in oneplatform for everyone.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:think it's a question of systems a little bit, not system, but like scaling.What I mean by that is let's say tomorrow I want to say my goal is [00:06:00] to be the strongest. guy alive on myrelative strength So for like a specific weight, how much can I lift or stufflike that? If this is just my goal and I'm talking about that goal, it's notnecessarily reflecting like a system on how can I effectively get to thatpoint. Well, I need a coach. I'll need the right nutrition. I'll need themotivation or consistency of always working out up to being to that goal. Sothat's one thing. And for startups, it's the same. They're talking aboutvisions. Oh, I want the huge company's enterprise to be able to use thatproduct and the really small startup to be able to use it.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:And everyone will like it. Yeah. You're talking about 15, 20, 25 years, likegoal. Instead, you should just think as a startup. I have limited resources.And if I talk about like, We're simplifying the future. That [00:07:00] doesn't mean anything. It's like, okay,you have this goal or this vision, but it's, it's not scalable at all at yourcurrent stage. So I think that's why startups fall under that caveat or trap ormishap of, Oh, I'm going to just try to be for everyone because I just want themarket to love my product and generate demand. But. If you don't scale it down,if you don't like just narrow it down to strategic pains that are trying tosolve, it's going to be very, very challenging to scale the right way and go tomarket according to your resources end of rant Yeah.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:love that example. I love how you hinge on, upon like, okay, let's say you'rebuilding a product for strong people. Like we've all seen that show, maybe likephysical 100 on Netflix. And I never knew there was, yeah, I never knew therewas. 100 different types of strength. Like you've got like, you have yourathletic strength, you got your bulking strength, [00:08:00]you've got your flexibility strength.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:So like using that specific example, there's different nuances and no, and Ithink this will go to the next is that the more successful launches I see havespeak to the nuances within the market or like the nuances within thesegmentation. For instance, Oreo. The cookie itself, there's Oreo milkshake,there's Oreo thins, there's Oreo ice cream, too, as well, so, like, even thoughit's one core product, they've made different products, different subcategoriesto meld within a niche audience, too, so.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:dude, what a good example, because I hate Oreo ice cream. I love Oreos andmilk. That is, wow, such a good example of like, yeah, [00:09:00]like dude, don't come get my ice cream that you don't like, but I got you onthe cookies and milk option.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:But imagine if Oreo had an all in one

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:an all in one Oreo ice cream milk candy.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:in 99

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:I just saw, uh,

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:it's what Dr. Pepper did, right? 23 flavors

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:in one.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Brownie. My nephew had an Oreo Cosmic Brownie the other day. I was like, what?So

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:if your nephew had an Oreo Cosmic Brownie and milkshake and original Oreocookie. And Oreo protein shake. Like, your nephew just didn't buy just oneitem. They got the whole

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:his mom wouldn't buy it for him because he'd have diabetes in about 37 seconds.But,

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:Diabetes is not a bad thing. It's just sensitivity to sugar and insulin. Thatmakes it more empathetic to different, um, nutrients.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:We'll cut that out. We'll cut that out because I'm an [00:10:00]asshole, but, but like

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:We love our people with

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:to answer, to answer your immediate question, cause I'm the asshole, like Ijust said, I'm going to put it pretty blankly, like two reasons why I thinkthis is happening at the scale that we believe we see it at number one is Ijust had a recent conversation, I'm not going to give details, but it was,Very, very simple CRO messaging should be the same that it is for the head ofsales to me.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:That's

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:No.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:right. Like you, like you just said, like it to me read, like as a productmarketer, and I think this gets into my next point, um, there is an immediateawareness to us. Like, no, Those aren't the same people, you know what I mean?Like they do have similar goals and, you know, they may have, you know, [00:11:00] similar conversations to a point, butthey've got different lives, especially on a personal level, different thingsthat, um, you know, I think that would definitely need to communicate it in adifferent, different way. So that was immediate, like, boom, you know, like redlight, red flag type situation. Where I just think it's kind of negligent,right? Like they aren't trained in the same way that we believe that we're trainedas product marketers to say like, Hey, look, I know you think they're the same,but if we were to actually have a hundred conversations with 50 different ofthose personas, we'd actually see some different threads being pulled. And thenthe second thing that I think is like obvious and you'll see it in our content.Is the founder sees the connection of I'm selling to this person who uses myproduct, [00:12:00] but I have this person whosigns the check for my product. So let's talk to either one, you know, beingthe person who signed the check, or let's try to blend this into one singlemessage. And there's so much pressure, especially if you're looking at thestartup phase, for us to tell that founder, you don't know what you're talkingabout. We need to do it the way that we believe we're trained in and that wecan, you know, point to example A, B, and C. As to why this is the way to doit. So those are my two reasons, you know, to your question, Zach,

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:why are we seeing this on homepage messaging and everywhere else,

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:why I think that's a, I think, um, combining those two personas is a lot betterthan the sales and marketing persona as one person. Because like, in reality,like some of these organizations within sales market hate each other. So whywould you combine like that? I feel like then you're marketing to someone justwith [00:13:00] such self hatred towardsthemselves.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Gab, what do you think?

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Yeah, and I think it just circles back to one of the examples you said on oneepisode, Eric, or maybe it was just with us, but you said, like, if you'retrying to, if I'm trying to get Gong approved internally, like, and you talk toyour VP of sales, like, do you want Gong? Yes. For which reasons? Those reasonswill be usually drastically different from your reasons, right? You want tohave stuff that is

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:ultimately specific to your stuff. If you talk about increased revenue and likebonuses that everyone will get once this is installed and implemented, it's alot more generic, right? Everyone can talk about that. So I think it's just togo back to the point that you said of, you know, it's, it's probably why thatwe're seeing that much kind of Weird homepage messaging a bit, like people arejust trying their stuff out and they're usually getting guided by a bunch [00:14:00] of, um, you know, recommendations thatdon't necessarily have such like, uh, they're not necessarily legit.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:And that's why some of that stuff is happening

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:add to that point is that one thing that like really strikes me as like a veryhuge discrepancy is that all of us here knows like the framework jobs to bedone like that in every organization, it's part of a product line. However,when we talk about market segmentation, it feels like it's very much glossedover and just like reduced to, you know, Someone who does acts and then, Oh,that's our target audience.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:So bringing this staff that I thought was really cool. And we've heard thisbefore, but the person that also created jobs to be done also said this, that95 percent of product launches failed due to poor market segmentation. And ifyou all know who this is, is the late Clayton Christensen of the Harvardbusiness school.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:And it just [00:15:00] strikes me as like, soodd that like we adopt one practice of his, but the other one, it's just like,it feels like all of us forget. So I'm curious for all of us here. Like, Ithink like Eric, you mentioned a little bit typically here, but like, what aresome of the horror stories that you've seen firsthand of poor, more poorlyaudience segmentation?

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:yes. So first job in tech, this was like before I was even, I was stillprobably too naive to know how impactful segmentation was, but just at like abase level, um, We were essentially, we had a product that was really awesomefor video editors, right? People who edited videos, um, people who also editedaudio, right?

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Because you can't have a video. When was the last time you watched a silentmovie, right? So you need, you need audio components. So those two things, itwas shining. [00:16:00] Just everyone knew. Imean, you didn't even have to go to actual and pull. Case studies andtestimonials, just like you go to a gong call and you just see, yep, this isthe product, um, for this type of folk. But internally we wanted to talk aboutthe head of IT, right? We wanted to talk about the CEOs. We wanted to talkabout like this business use case because it was file storage, right? Soalthough it worked really well for large files that were, you know, made formovies and video games. It doesn't matter when you're working on a, on adocument or, you know, something that's relatively small. So there's, you'retrying to go to like these business use cases and HR use cases who aren't evenseeing the value, seeing the performance that this other segment is glaringlyimpressed [00:17:00] with and willing to spendtens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars on. But there wasall this effort to like figure that out.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Right. And there was all this, I grew out to figure out this other segment ofarchitectural users. Right. People who work with like Autodesk and CAD to buildblueprints and things like that, like just totally different use cases,different jobs to be done. And at the end of the day, different lives. Like,can you imagine a video editor who sits at his desk for like 18 hours a daywith like 18 cups of coffee being at a country club with that architecturalengineer, who's drawing an Autodesk. that, uh, you know, CIO or head of it, allof those three hanging out at a country club together, having a beer, likethey're really most likely not going to have similar lives in work. And they'reprobably not going to have some more lives outside of work either. And, um,that was one of the [00:18:00] like glaringmoments for me before I really got like formally educated on. On jobs to bedone and read the book myself, I was like, something's wrong here, like is, iswrong here. You know, messaging's off sales is having a hard time closingcertain deals. We've got this one segment particularly who focus on these. I'llcall them misfit segments for now. Um, and you saw their, their win rates weredrastically down compared to those who were working with the, you know, the,um, the enterprise clients like Netflix and so on and so forth. So, uh, yeah,long winded answer probably a little bit, but that is very specifically what Iwas going with going through for about 12, 18 months.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:such, uh. Like, I understand a hundred percent what you, what you kind of livethere. And, uh, I think it's always that, I think it's maybe a question of [00:19:00] this is what other companies are doing. Solet's do it. But they don't necessarily understand that, you know, as you said,with the example of the, the true people in the country club, like how can youspeak to them and being relevant if they all have like drastically differentlives, you know? Um, And yeah, I think that's, that's just a good way to putit. It's like, make sure that you understand the situation so that way you canbasically understand the problem and you can very much focus on how can youmake it enjoyable into solving it. And once that is done, then it's possible inthe future of going after, you know, those other. Type of companies, but it'sgoing to be a later stage, right? Because you'll already have like successstories of that first segment. First,

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:I think like that example points out that like a lot of companies want to bethat table that serves that different audience. But then they don't, to getback to your point, they don't want to understand the [00:20:00]context to really know what the right audience to go after, meaning thatthey're not willing to say no to some people to prioritize the best fitaudience for the product, given the stage they're at today.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Oh, you nailed it. And I was going to actually ask one of you to speak onsomething really quick. So like my retort to that immediately is like, okay,we, you know, the, the video editor versus architectural engineer conversation,my argument is, okay, Mr. Founder, where's the money for us to go have adepartment who can focus on that segment, right?

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:So we can create specialized messaging so we can actually work on thosefeatures that that segment's asking for. You know, right? Like, I think that'skind of also the, the, I don't know if it's elephant in the room, even, I [00:21:00] just think it's almost like forgottenabout, but it's like, if you want to go after multiple segments, and I've seenposts from you, Gab, this is why I'm asking the question for you guys to chimein, is, If you're going after multiple segments, don't you need more resourcesfor that segment?

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:yo,

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:you definitely need like, it's it's a question of scaling it up. A lot of thoseinitiatives take time, right? You need to always repeat yourself. You need toalways have like a trigger event and then you pitch your message and that wayyou become top of mind. Right. But it takes months usually, if not years. Um,if you're always kind of switching up the target, it won't have the sameeffect, right? Because you're always context switching. It's like if I try todo two tasks at the same time and I do one and then I do the other, I think, Idon't exactly remember the exact stats, but it's like the productivity comparedto just doing one task is entirely [00:22:00]different. So if you understand as much as possible one target, you focus onit, you get a social proof around it, it's going to be a lot more easier toscale that specific target and become top of mind for that. Target, right? Ifyou mix triggers, if you mix your understanding of your ICP, it's going to beeasier because you have that target in mind. And the counter like argument ofthat is, yeah, but I want to get as much at that as I can. Yes. Okay. Butyou're going to be a generalized solution instead of a specific one. And thatcan make all of the difference in the prospect mind.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:I think what's easier is to be the ozempic of go to market. You just need tofind that. The equivalent that is just going to do all 10 audiences at once. Soyou don't have to do that focus. Caveat team. There is no such thing as likeOzembic for go to market. So don't go searching for it online

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:because y'all know someone's going to look it up. You know, [00:23:00] you have someone to be looking it up.They're like, oh man, I was just listening to this podcast. of go to market. Weneed that for our company.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:that's good. That's good. Do you guys have any good examples that you've seenout in the wild or even have been a part of, of like really tight segmentation?

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Um, I, I, okay, I have one. Let me ask the researchers on the team to, uh, todo their work,

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Yeah. Yeah. Researchers.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. They changed their homepage, so I think it might be lesscool, but you should check mercury. com like the planet. Um, what I like aboutthem and I wrote a post about them is, uh, they really come up as they aretargeting early stage startups.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Now they change it, but the old website was [00:24:00]really towards, we are banking for startups. The hardest thing that you'retrying to solve is, you know, Internal and external wires of money, so we'remaking that super easy. Um, so that's, that's a good example of segmentationthe way they did it. Startup friendly capital, banking and a bunch of stufflike that, but they changed it.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:So I don't want to 100 percent put my stamp of approval. I'll have to take it abit further, but last time it was good.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:You know what I'm going to say has a very accidental, very good position.Fireball whiskey.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Fireball whiskey. Explain.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:Okay. So like for anyone that goes to like a cheap college town bar and yourtarget demographic is going to be roughly from the age of 17 to 24, mind you,no one under the age of 21 should be under the bar. But. Somehow [00:25:00] they find their way in there. There'sfireball whiskey, and this is the, this is the whiskey that bottom shelf, butbecause they have such a good branding, they have that, they have this likelying on the line on the side of it.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:It's in this cool, like bottle design. And it's fireball. It's spicy. It's liketo the throat. It's like a hot tamale. And when you are going, when you arereached the age of 21, you're over drinking age or a few years before thatfireball whiskey just happened to be that drink of choice. at house parties, atbars.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:But after a certain age, i. e. 27, 28, that stuff is gross. It tastes likedrinking antifreeze. But for whatever reason, Fireball just has a significanthole from the 18 to 25 [00:26:00] market. Andit's just accidental. And because like us three on this conversation, If wepoured a shot of fireball whiskey, this podcast would be over because we justbe like over the toilet.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:But, um, when you are at a certain point, the fireball whiskey, but the thingwith fireball whiskey, they don't have, they don't actually advertise to thatgroup is for whatever reason. I feel like people gravitate towards them becauseone, the pricing, the packaging, the place it's at, like you're not going tofind fireball whiskey.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:On top of the Eiffel tower at a bar from Eiffel tower. But you will find it inthe back alley of Madison, Wisconsin.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Well, this is a, this is an insane comparison. I like it. I've always, this isgreat. This is bringing back some very bad memories, but I like it.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:Exactly. It, the fireball whiskey is associated to your best memories and alsoyour worst memories.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:[00:27:00] Exactly.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:fact. That's a fact for sure.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Yeah. Yeah.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Fun fact. So, I hate it twice as much as someone who just hates it regularly.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:I'll, uh, I'll take my example back from Mercury and instead I'll, I'll talkabout equals. com. Um, so

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:equals. is, uh, it's, it's, uh, it's, um, software that is basically replacingExcel and their headline is because startup reporting is so damn hard equalsfilled the void between one size fit all and complex data platforms. It's as ifyour favorite spreadsheet and BI tool had a baby alleged prodigy. Um, so, uh,yeah, you should check this out.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Like I've been, I've been writing a couple of posts, uh, a couple of posts on,uh, Only calls, uh, on messaging, uh, for a while now.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Then my,

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:Equals is a definite swipe file for like [00:28:00]inspiration.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:I was going to say, you just, you just gave me an idea with that one then. So,I didn't have an example when I asked that question, but when you said theExcel replacement, if you've heard of Arc Browser. I haven't been on theirwebsite

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Oh, yeah. Haven't tried it, but I heard about it a

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:yeah, I haven't been on their website for a bit. So don't hold me to this, butit used to say the Chrome replacement you've been waiting for. Right. So theyweren't like calling out a job title or anything like that, but it wasessentially what I took from that when I saw it and why I was so impressed waspeople who use Chrome and want to replace it with something better. Right. AndI knew from at least my experience, I was never going to internet browserremote Or the new, like, I think it's edge or something like that. Um, I waslike, they're all just the same thing or worse than Chrome. So when I saw thatpiqued my interest, and then of course saw [00:29:00]the, saw the visual, right, shout out to showing your product on your homepage.Um, I was like, Oh yeah, this is definitely different than Chrome and I'm sickof all my tabs type thing.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:So this was really good positioning and I think segmentation because they saidChrome users are the people that we are trying to capture. Great idea.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Yeah, I love it. And I also, I also think it's like, uh, first, it's still onthe website. If you check it out now, it's still Ark as a Chrome replacementI've been waiting for. But automatically, it's like social proof because whosaid that? The Verge. So like a legit source said that. Um, and what I like toois they are targeting developers. As well. So it's one of their tab on theirwebsite and they have like a specific landing page on that. So I think it'spushing like a lot of more usability on the technical side [00:30:00] from that specific target. Uh, and this isjust, again, I, it might be the shiny object syndrome, but I really feel likeinstalling it and trying it out.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:But like pushing back on that really quick, like what we said here earlier, Ithink it's fair to say that when they were looking, you're looking at art, theyweren't only just targeting developers. There must be something elseunderneath. And it sounds like what you're seeing Eric and Gab is that there'sa certain pain point that they found within developers that resonates so muchas to why they created that product.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Probably. Yeah. I think that that makes sense. Um, I don't want to go too nerdon you guys or into specific, but what I know is Chrome eat RAM, like there'sno tomorrow. So you have a few tabs open and it just become like kind of a hardexperience as a browser. Um, so maybe that has an impact on those developersare trying to use it or navigate or leverage it. Um, so, you know, [00:31:00] that might, that might be why, but ahundred percent, there's certainly a specific type of, of pain point that aretrying to solve their, um, of that main popular browser, but a lot of differentalternatives that they need to kind of, uh, compete against

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Well, and that actually, I think it walked us right into another conversationthat we weren't even maybe expecting, but I actually love that too. So they,they did their work. They built this product as maybe a Chrome replacement atfirst. That was kind of like the founder vision perhaps. And the productmarketing team did a really good job of making that come to life and then doingthe extra work of saying, you know, who feels this pain the most. Developersand then they landed and expanded and now you've got a product marketer talkingabout it. I've also got, um, essentially our content guy is all about arc, bothfrom a content perspective, loves their stuff, but loves their product. And hasalso [00:32:00] mentioned in, in calls whenhe's advocating for it, that he thinks developers love it.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:So it reminded me a lot of Figma. I love Figma. I use it for all, almost all ofmy brainstorming and a lot of other work. Um, that's not meant for me. Theydidn't, they didn't target me, right? They targeted designers and designersloved it so much because it was easy to use that now, you know, someone like meis using it for a bunch of other stuff.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:So. There's nothing wrong with really, you know, niching it down. We love thatword here and getting your segments nice and tight, knowing that eventuallythose users are going to whisper to those other segments that you want to getto, and you're going to naturally build into that product and get thoseadvocates and, um, be able to have your all in one offering that you Youdreamed of Mr.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:CEO.[00:33:00]

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:just,

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:uh, just a very quick parenthesis to, to end that ally, a lot of the Figmaexample. Just want to put forward that, if people want to use that as a way tocounter our arguments. Um, Figma raised a total of like 700 millions, right?And they're like 12,000 people working there. Um, oh no, sorry. Uh, aroundbetween 1,005 thousand.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:I'll check it out later. So it's not your, it's not a small startup. They gotacquired by Adobe, I think. Um, so there's always that. That kind of aspect ofscale that we're talking about. If you have 20 people and you want to sell toeveryone, it's going to be a very different story.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:I think one thing that you guys are hitting on with these successful ones islike having a very passionate fan base focused around like a core interest.Like it almost sounds like you want to build like a sports [00:34:00] team. Like aura or like environment aroundyour product. And I think this kind of goes back to like the new buzzword andB2B right now has been community.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:And like, if you talk to some organizations today, they're like, Oh, we want tobuild a community around our product. But it sounds like the wrong way of doingit is to build it around your product, but to build a community around what itsounds like an interest or like a pain point. And my. Am I tracking here?

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Yeah. And you know, I was, I was editing, um, Becky's episode this weekend andshe starts talking about storytelling and this note really resonate resonatewith me and it's the best stories like actually hit home with you. She toldthat story about Travis or Jason Kelsey retiring and how she has nothing to dowith that NFL player. But he [00:35:00] hadthis whole conversation about family and, you know, you know, getting out ofthe, the grind of his work day so he could spend more time with his family. Andthat resonated with her on a personal level. Right. And I think those are thebest stories and it's a lot easier to do it when you are within that, thatsegment of people who are going through those same work problems every singleday.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:And. Um, probably more in line in their personal lives of things going onoutside of it as well. Like, like us three, for example, finding

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Yeah.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:a common thread to start a podcast.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Love

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:it's not, it's not, it was not because of we were going after

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Yeah. Yeah. And it's not because you're a salesperson. Gab's a, you know, CSperson and I'm an engineer, right? It's because we're all three productmarketers.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Exactly. Exactly. I didn't know we had an engineer on the team and [00:36:00] you'll, you'll have to work on the

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:No, that's, uh, that's, uh, Zach's wife is our engineer. So if she doesn'tknow,

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:shout

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:already,

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:best,

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:she's, she's been hired

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:website and podcast history.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Exactly.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Exactly. Um, no, but I think, I think the emotion part is, is super, superstrong. It's like, um, I watch cooking shows and there's always like a momentwhere It was hard and they were trying to kind of go out of a rant or somethingand I always like get emotional and then My girl is asking me what's up.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:And I'm like, do you spend so much effort trying to create their restaurant?And now it's in peril. It's just a good story, right? We're able to relate tothat. I would like taking risks and trying to get to that point, but I don'tknow why. I mean, those, those cooking shows are always getting me on that end.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:I think that's how I feel about bar rescue when I'm like, Oh my gosh, their baris terrible. I could do such a better, more, much better job than them. And I'mlike, have you ever ran a bar? No.[00:37:00]

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Exactly.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Well,

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:So one question I wanted to open up to you all is that we kind of spoke alittle bit about kind of like, what are the different ways to identify like,kind of like what, What are the commonalities of looking for in a targetaudience? Can be an interest pain point. I'm curious, like what else like kindof comes to mind, like for you all, when you're thinking about audiencetargeting, like what, what should people be looking out for and maybe what aresome techniques to updo of like doing that?

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:um, the tried and true way, which I'm sure people are so tired of hearing, butlike, go talk to your customers, like, go ask them what they're trying to do.Uh, Devin Reed, not a product marketer, gave me one of the best questions I'veever thought about and have added it to all of my interviews. And [00:38:00] it's what does a good day look like foryou and then reverse UNO it back on them and ask them what a bad day lookslike. And if you can start finding those threads, it's like, I'd start rightthere. Um, don't even worry about job titles and all that much. Like what doesa good day look like for you? What does a bad day look like? And if you canstart picking those things out and correlating them to your product. Um, that'show I would start that exercise.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:If you don't know where to start.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:focus on the pain and at what stage would you suggest doing that Eric? Like preseed, uh, no current customers, or do you think it's still something you canimplement when you're like. Close to a Series A or

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Oh yeah, man. I would, I'd say at any point, you know, like you go in and you,you just need to spend some time with the people who you think are going to buyyour product and you're going to know, right. Once you start talking to [00:39:00] them, if they're going to want to buy itor not, and then you can weigh out degrees. Of interest and be like, Hey, thisperson. I forget, everyone's got a different scale. Um, I think there's asimple one to five, you know, kind of feature preference that you can run. Butthe person with the most fives and the most fours. That's where you start atyour, you know, early, early stage. Um, and then you'll, you'll make all themoney you need to start getting into a, and then you can do that same exerciseover.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Okay. We were doing really well on our, um, you know, our top interest tierhere. Um, we've had a few examples where the second tier seems to actually be areally good fit now. We've got some money, we've got the ability to scale ourteam, let's create a go to market plan and, and continue doing, um, you know,that same research that you did for the, for the first [00:40:00]segment. That would be

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:I would say, I think that's, that's a good tip, but I think something thatmight kind of be a good combo with that is also document everything of yournext buying purchase. of software. So just put yourself in a potential buyershoes like, okay, so I need to find a CRM for example. What am I doing? Well,I, I care about this, this and this.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Okay. Well, what type of customer am I? Oh, I'm a solo printer. I'm trying tobuild my consultancy. Okay. So you're able to kind of map out your own buyer'sjourney and then it will just help you understand a lot more about what keypoints of data you need to gather from those interviews with your own buyer'sjourney.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Well, I've been going to those different stages, but I have. Maybe less, I havea lot less like stages or approval, approval as like phases I need to docompared to someone in enterprise, right? So by [00:41:00]just having that in mind and trying to define it, it will be easier for you tothen map out how do we reach those out when they realize they have a problem.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Do we need to educate them or do we need to just capture the fact that you'relooking for a solution?

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Zach, do you want to

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:jump in? I had something I want to say, but I want to give you an opportunityto say, to retort.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:No, I appreciate your brother. Like one thing that comes to mind for me that,um, there's a few things that I swore on my mind is that along with doing userinterviews, I think one thing that's been really powerful is like contextualinquiries. And that's been another way of known as field studies of justobserving, like your core audience and it's in their like natural environmentto see how they approach a problem.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:One example that comes to mind is that with Clayton Christensen, when he waswriting the book, um, Just a job to be done. Um, they talk about the example oflike McDonald's and the milkshake and the context of it being that McDonald'swanted to boost their milkshake sales. And they were trying to figure out howto do that.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:And so he sat [00:42:00] by and watched like anobservation of like what that process was like from their fast food for thedrive through. And he noticed that more and more people would order it in themorning when they're on their way to work. And what they noticed, um, is to kindof go like they're getting, getting it for breakfast.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:So that was like a really unique insight that he uncovered just from observingthat process

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Yeah. it's a great

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:full, right? They wanted to be, they wanted to be more full for their longbreak between the start of their morning to lunchtime.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:and they didn't want it to have like that, you know, it needs to be accessible.Like you cannot just eat like a, an egg McMuffin like this while driving. It'sjust like, you might get stuff on your tie. Like, you know, like it happened tome a lot of trying to eat while doing, while driving long hour and just puttingall the sauce on yourself.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:You don't want that to happen on your way to work, right? So you'll getsomething that will keep you all good and productive [00:43:00]up until like noon for lunch. and will also be easily digestible. You just, youjust slurp, uh, uh, your milkshake in the morning.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:on the go. This does seem so far ago back in a day when people commuted forwork. I. I'm glad we're not in that situation.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:gosh. Don't even get me started.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:I commute to my kitchen every day.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Yeah. I kid. Yeah. My kitchen, I got about 26 steps probably from here to mykitchen. So. Um, Gab I wanted to go back cause something that I thought about,so right now I'm in a weird meta situation where I'm a product marketer doingproduct marketing for product marketers.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:So it's very cool, but not everyone,

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Really.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:meta

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:um, not everyone has it as easy as this. So you're going to have to modify, youknow, my little trick and tip that I'm going to try out here. But I talked to,um, our director. And I was like, yo, man, like, let's [00:44:00]go through a sales motion. Like I will do an outbound or an inbound request.Um, we'll go through the process. We will try to sell it to our VP of marketingwho will also then try to go and get budget. And, um, you know, we'll see thepart, we'll map it all out ourselves. And, um, not something we can do rightnow, but I know it's, it's definitely. Both of us have an appetite for it. Soprobably going to push it into Q3. Um, while you were, you were mentioning thatI had the idea and of course, this is going to require a little bit of budget,but I would just see if you can do some, some old school, like cold outreach tothe people who you think. Again, would be a good fit, pay them to do a fakebuyer journey and be like, Hey, we're, we want to set this kind of fake buyerthing up. You guys get a fake budget, try and we're going to try to sell youthis product and [00:45:00] go through thewhole thing. Um, I haven't heard of anyone doing that and it might be crazy,but it might be kind of cool if you've got a little bit of budget where youcan, you can do some of that research instead of just like survey outreach, soto speak.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Yeah,

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:it's a great idea. I just think it needs to be done with a great execution aswell. Um, because it's wanting to get people, but if Like if it's nothomogenous, it's going to be drastically different and then you won'tnecessarily be able to get any conclusion out of it. Um, but I think it's agood idea with the right incentive, getting people of like, what are youlooking for?

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:What's your process? Um, now you've been told that you have a problem, butlike, are you aware of that problem? How are you trying to solve it? And all ofthat. I think it's, I think it's a good option. I just think it needs to have alot of guardrails, but it can be done. Um, it's giving me a bunch of [00:46:00] ideas.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:think about it this way too, right? You pay them, let's just say a thousandbucks arbitrary. You're like, Hey, I'll give you a thousand dollars to do afake. Sales journey or, you know, buyer journey with us. And then through yourdiscovery, they're like, yeah, this is actually pretty cool. We want to buythis thing. You close it for 50 K.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:give us back our thousand

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:I'm just saying that might, that might, we got a new strategy developing

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Yeah. Make sure you get deals with me right though.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:So it sounds like our key takeaway is we gotta, we gotta bring people in forresearch studies, sell them on our product, make it so good that they werelike, Oh, we actually want to buy it now.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Yeah.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Exactly. Exactly. Go to not marketers. com and uh, maybe we'll talk about it onone of the newsletter, you know?

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Who

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:Or maybe go research our website and then if you like the research so muchsubscribe to the

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:I'll, [00:47:00] I'll do you one better. Maybego to our website and you'll see a new offer where we go ahead and researchthese people for you.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Aye

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:But you're going to have to cough up that thousand dollar payment. We're not,we're not fronting that for

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Wow.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:idea very much any any parting shots before we hop

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:you. Yeah. I got one just. Just, just narrow it down. It's not that difficult.People will love your product more. Your sales team will love you more becausethey'll actually be closing, you know, one out of three deals instead of oneout of 10 deals. And, um, you know, at the end of the day, you'll be lookinglike the hero who did it all.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:The hero and isn't that we all want to be the hero that's looked at with [00:48:00] influence and admiration Not in disdainand disgust

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:Yeah. Like I legitimately want to be sent a cape and being like, you are thehero. Here's your cape.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Exactly.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:a raise, but you know that hey, do you boo?

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Right.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:Now we know what eric wants that that's what you're gonna get your nextperformance review He's a cave. He said hey, I listened to that episode. Thisis what you wanted

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:You know, just,

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:You want a 20k? Here's a

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:game.

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:that gets, that gets

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:We were gonna give you a 20k raise

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:20K. I get a hundred dollar cape. Let's go. All right. Well, as you saw, we'vesegmented down here. We only talk to product marketers who feel like misfits intheir organization. So that wraps it up for another episode of we're not[00:49:00]

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:marketers.

zach---he-him-_1_06-17-2024_142220:Hey flying

eric_1_06-17-2024_152220:you next week.

gab_1_06-17-2024_152219:Talk soon​

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