Episode with Anna Borbotko

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Introduction and Host Change

We are podcasts for product markets and B2B SaaS who feelmisunderstood of what they do. From someone who truly gets what you do.Basically help you feel less like a misfit to being unignorable in your role.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:Welcome to another episode of We're Not Marketers. I'm Gab Bujold. I'mreplacing Eric with the intro because he's a new dad and he needs all the resthe can get.

Guest Introduction: Anna Borbotko

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:We have an amazing guest, Anna Borbotko. She's a Jedi of product marketing. Shehas an intensive background in that field, mainly in GTM and positioning, whichshe consider a personal habitat. She's currently a buyer and sales enablementlead for TomTom, a huge company, and she has an amazing track record. Anna,we're very happy to get you on what our market is today.

Track 1: I'm gonnablush like my sweater.

Fun Banter and Hoodie Talk

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:We gotta get

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:you one of those hoodies

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:that Zach's got on.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:Now. Hey, yo, we like, like, lemme see if I can get the angle right herebecause our guy over here air, he did his [00:01:00]work.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:Let me see if gonna show you the back. I'm not bending over by any means.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:Do a.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:lemme

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:Oh.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:alright. You see this?

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:Sitting on a pile of content. Oh boy. Poor Zach.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:Gigantic back.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:This guy's

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:hitting the gym and it shows.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:That's why I had to, and Anna, I had to preface. I was like, look I'm showingthe back, but if it looks like I'm trying to bust it down, load. I ain't, thatain't it. I'm in.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:It is all right though. Gab wore a turtleneck today, so we didn't get, wedidn't get the dress up Memo, Zach, we're the ones that failed today.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:We, we, we really did.

Anna's Background and Role at TomTom

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:Anna, where are you calling us from?

Track 1: I am callingfrom Amsterdam. I'm based in the Netherlands, so it's a nine, nine o'clock yearin in Europe.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:Hey, we global, we 24/7. It's so exciting to have you on we said this earlierwhen we started, like you are our second guest from across the pond.

Track 1: I'm a [00:02:00] bit bummed. I'm not the first one, butthat's fine. I'll actually say that you guys are actually my very firstpodcast, so I'm gonna give you that.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:Oh,

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:what?

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:I don't know how many episodes we've done so far, but I'm still for to unmutemyself.

Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:But yeah, Anna are product marketers, actually marketers. Why or why not?

Track 1: Uh, I'vewandered about it for very, like, since Eric invited me to this podcast a lotabout it. Do you want serious or non.

We'll take both then.Let's go.

Track 1: So I'llstart with the serious one and I'll put the non-serious one, somewhere inbetween. So I think it's yes and no, and it's very context dependent. So let meexplain. So nowadays marketers are very muchassociated with fluff. Which is unfortunate because if you look at so manygreat skilled marketers out there, I think it's just unfair.

Track 1: If I am,let's say, to associate myself with a [00:03:00]pro as to marketing, right? As a product marketer, I don't have a luxury to beassociated with Donald Draper from madman. Like I just don't have that luxury.But in essence, if you just. Get rid of that fluff perception for a moment. Marketing is in essence, a growth engine forthe company.

Track 1: They ensure that you are the one that istalked about at the dinner party. And they are the ones that basicallybring that revenue to the company. So in that sense. I am the coded marketeerby by profession, by passion.

Track 1: That's how Istarted my career. So I as associate myself. With marketing. But I also knowthat there are a lot of product marketers that don't think that way. A veryclose colleague of mine, he definitely will say no to that question. But justto go back to your question and elaborate on that especially on the contextpart.

Sales-Led vs. Product-Led Organizations

Track 1: So I always work for sales-led companies. Sofor. You [00:04:00] see That product marketer needs to be amarketer because we are gonna need to bring those leads to bring that awarenessback to sales. Now, if you work for a company that is PLG, right, so theproduct led company like Atlassian, for example, I think you don't necessarilyneed to be marketer there.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:So tell us really quick, like ina sales led organization like TomTom, Tom, when you are talking with reps, like how doyou define product marketing to them so they have a clear, succinctunderstanding of what you do? It makes it easier to get that job done.

Track 1: Okay, you gonna put me on the spot?

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:You brought, you brought such agood explanation.

Track 1: Am getting in the same color as the sweater?No. Explain it, or at least how I would explain is that, hey, we aremarketers, but we think like salespeople. I think that's, that'sjust, you need to do it otherwise you'll be again, associated with it. Oh,marketing. They don't understand what we're doing.

Track 1: And, but youalso don't want to be [00:05:00] sales, right?So because sales have their own perception out there that hey, they're pushyguys. You need to be somewhere in the middle. So what I how I would explainwhat we do at TomTom with product marketing is we very much. Fuel both, we fuelour marketers and our sales with like, okay, this is how, what the story youneed to tell out there.

Track 1: But TomTomis also a nice company in a way that we also very much clo closely work withproduct. Just, that's just the nature of the company. So we also very much notnecessarily wearing the marketer head all the time. So that's that's the uniqueposition of, I would say.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:So what do you say when people should be more oriented to CEOs than they shouldbe to like, VP of sales or even CMOs?

Track 1: Yeah. So Ithink if you work for a startup, 'cause I used to work for a startup you don'thave a choice. You have to be. You need to know what CEO wants, right? Becausehe's probably the one of the founders and he has a vision. Oh, I hope he [00:06:00] has a vision. Right. But when you are inthe enterprise type of organization, you're quite far away from CEO, you getglimpse of the direction, but it's up to others in a leadership team to setthat direction forward and make that realized.

Track 1: So I thinkit's very much, again, context dependent where you are in the work.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:How big is TTomTo?

Track 1: We more than3000 employees worldwide,

Track 1: so

Track 1: we quitebig.

Track 1: We don'thave waste.

TomTom's Evolution from B2C to B2B

Track 1: So westarted as a consumer company indeed, but then what happened is, of course witha whole boom of phones and then Google coming in with Google Maps, we had topivot. And I am proudly to say that TomTom is one of the few companies thatmanaged to.

Track 1: Pivot frombeing this 99% B2C company into now 90% B2B, which doesn't really happen a lot.If you look at all the other, let's say, companies in the industries. So inthat sense what they do today, we, I like to call it, we sell Lego blocks. [00:07:00] We sell Lego blocks because map is verycomplex.

Track 1: Maps,location, everything related to it is very complex. It's constantly changing.Every minute we talk right now, there's probably a road that's got closed or abuilding that got renamed or something like that. So it's living organism andit really takes a lot of effort to maintain it. So today we sell those Legoblocks because they're used by different.

Track 1: Companiesfor different reasons because location is everywhere. It's in 90% ofapplications that we use. You'll be surprised how many use cases actually outthere to use location, and I don't mean consumer map that we see every time wewant to get from eight. Just address, let's say database, right?

Track 1: Youraddresses are useful, like verification if your postal address is correct, whenyour groceries are getting delivered. Your um, uh. when the parcel comes yourway, right, they know exactly where the door is. So that's how precise nowadaysthis has all [00:08:00] became and it's goesbeyond just a map or that's visual.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:It's really interesting and I really feel like this is such a unique use case.Like 10 years ago I was I was selling textile in a B2C like retail shop, and Iremember that we had GPS GPS basically.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:So within

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:this kind of like. Less than 10 years, were able to do that huge pivot from 99%B2C product to 90% B2B, which is really a really a really interesting use case,basically.

Track 1: Yeah,

Track 1: we discoversomething new every day.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:what has been your impact on that And making sure the buying process at TomTomfacilitates what B2B buyers need

Track 1: We tackle itin multiple ways. So one is of course we have the, as I said, we are sales ledorganization. So that means that you will discover us through our marketingchannels and then you'll end up talking to our sales person.

Track 1: That's justhow we work [00:09:00] today. What you also seeis that, yeah, this model it's evolving a lot in a different direction whereit's also being fueled by, let's say, product led or product sales led type oforganization. And that's what we also have today there, that if you're adeveloper for example, and you are developing an application where you needlocation, you can discover us and try us out via our developer portal.

Track 1: And youdon't need to talk to salesperson, whether your credit card or even startingwith free credits, you can easily check out what we have to offer.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:I want to go back to what you said here a few minutes ago. You said like, goingback to context based of product marketing, you started off at a startup andproduct marketing, and you said like, Hey, this is. That there, you may nothave to be a marketer there. Now you are at TomTom.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:Now you're at a larger enterprise. You are a marketer in that sense, in thisspace right now. I'm curious, like what is it like working as a productmarketer in [00:10:00] a larger enterprise? Howdo you build influence when your audience, your internal audience, is larger?And you have more people to reach. I'm curious, like how have you handled that?

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:What are things that you've done personally to build those relationships tomake sure that work gets done?

Track 1: It's a lot of stakeholder management. A lot.I think the difficulty with working with enterprises is that. There's a lot ofsilos, there's a lot of things going on. People sometimes work on similarprojects that you do and you don't know about it and they don't know about you.So it's not a blaming game, it's just you don't know.

Track 1: And then byoccasion you figure out like, oh, we working on the same project, let's jointhe forces. So that's just, yeah. Unfortunate. However, I've met so many greatpeople with so many different expertise that you don't expect. And that's alsothe beauty I would say the enterprise is that if you're really onto something,yes, it might get slow in the [00:11:00]beginning, but once you are on it, once you've got that buy-in it's veryexciting because you know that it's not just.

Track 1: For a verylimited audience, if you're gonna make an impact it's gonna be big, right? Sofor example, I I'm an idea generator as a person. It's my personality. I'malways full of ideas. And two years ago we had like a. Conversation like, okay,how are we gonna help elevate sales? Because they're a lot of times alone theydon't necessarily invite product marketing to call.

Track 1: So how canwe ensure we do that? So we've done like a little pilot with our junior salesreps, and this way we like. Ensure that hey, product marketing is known outthere. We bring value. We're not just creating slides If you want to say weactually can help you out there, bring that story.

Track 1: And itdoesn't have to be a very warm lead. It can also be very cold. So we have likea cold outreach type of "pilot" that we did for like [00:12:00] six. We started with six months and thenit went to nine months, and when we closed one of the deals, we were like, yes,this is product marketing in its best you, where you can see that we canactually bring it from the very cold to a very hot sign contract.

Cold Outreach Pilot Program

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:Tell us more about that pilot, because that process, he just laid out rightthere, taking a cold lead, making it warm, making it easier for the seller toclose that deal like. What? What was your team doing to get that buy-in fromyour sales reps and more importantly, that trust to like bring the value ofproduct marketing to that work?

Track 1: This pilotwas not my idea. It was my manager's idea to give him the credit. But I was soexcited about it that I was like, I'm gonna take a lead on this. This gonna be,this gonna be my little baby. So what we did is that we selected very fewbecause we only were like four product marketers back then at TomTom.

Track 1: So we werelike, okay, we're gonna select four marketers. [00:13:00]It's a side project, so you still have your daily duties. And same goes for thesales, but you guys have the whole autonomy to do whatever you want to go andopen the doors. And we didn't have big accounts because that's a bit too riskyfor the pilot.

Track 1: So we tooklike. Small to medium sized companies in the vertical that we were focusing on.And we split that by regions and we split that between couples. So you have aone product marketer and you have one salesperson as a couple together, andit's up to you. A how do you approach those companies?

Track 1: What do yousay? What do you do? It's really like. The whole, like whatever you do, as longas you bring conversations and as long as you bring let's say yeah, bring thelearnings back home. That's, that was the idea. When we first started, we likereally had to pump the team because we also took some junior sales team membersthat never did a cold call, never let's say really did hunting as you say.

Track 1: So [00:14:00] it was like really cool to like start learning also from those cold emailsthat come your way and analyzing, Hey, did it trigger me? Did it not?And then trying different things and what we discovered and that's a. Let's say exciting bit that eventually theone message that worked always no matter who in which region you approach, itwas like, Hey, I'm looking for help.

Track 1: I'm doing some research. Right? So product marketeer doing cold outreachsaying, Hey, I'm doing some research on this market, would you willing tohop on a call? Right? So I'm not selling anything, I'm just doing research.And that triggered most of the people we approached and that secured a lot ofcalls.

Track 1: And then youcan go, okay, can we sneak and say, Hey, do you wanna continue theconversation? Can you maybe connect us to the right person? Or yeah, thisprobably no go wrong person, not the right fit, and let's move on. [00:15:00] So that's that's how we. Basically rolledfor starting six months.

Track 1: And then,and we had our also downs. Downs, right? So we sometimes had moments where it'slike, there's just crickets. There's nobody responding, nobody's reacting. Andthen you're like, okay, what do we do? And one thing that really helped us washaving this. Let's say biweekly catch up with the whole group and sharing,okay, hey, we're a little bit down.

Track 1: Oh, we arealso down. Okay, so what can we do? Let's brainstorm together. And that reallyhelped us okay, not to completely go crying in the corner somewhere. That'snothing working anymore. And bring that, let's say back back in speed.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:I think it just gave us like a really good outbound masterclass for us at, We'reNot Marketers. I think the idea of looking for. Researching somethinginstead of trying to sell something is definitely interesting and I would loveto try this out.

Enterprise vs. Startup: Stakeholder Management

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:I want to go back a little bit to what you said when we talked [00:16:00] about the difference between enterpriseversus startups.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:All four of us here have we all lived both sides of the coin. And I feel likein startups, stakeholder management is still important. Communication is stillimportant. Project management ultimately is still important, but it's 10x whenyou're an enterprise because you have huge initiative.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:You need to work together and you cannot just hop on calls with everyone. Soyou have to manage those priorities. And I really strongly relate to what yousaid about. You need to make those initiative counts. You need to get thosequick wins because it's long term. Instead of a startups where it's slot, it'sa lot crap here where you have to think outside the box, try something out,just get your hands dirty instead of how, always having to have meetings aboutmeetings, but making sure everyone is aligned with the same vision to make surethe execution can go well. And this is bringing me to another question, whichis not necessarily how we feel as PMMs [00:17:00]internally in organization, but more towards the overall B2B buying journey.You saw different face of it. How would you qualify this journey today? Wouldyou say it's simple? Would you say it's complex?

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:What's your 2 cent on basically?

Track 1: Oh man.Where do I get started? Where do I get Oh,

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:and before you give that answer, we gotta also call you out too, for givingyour manager props for the idea too. So if your manager listening to thisepisode, you, you know, you know when that next promotion cycle, you know, youknow who to tap over here. So she on the pod.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:Yeah. Louis. Louis, I don't know if you're hearing this, but if you are Annie.Annie needs a much deserved promotion.

Track 1: Yeah. We allrehashed already the Gartner report that 77% think that hey, it's complex, [00:18:00] right? I've been buying software myselffor the last three years and yeah, it's just, the whole process is just akiller. Doesn't matter whether you're a startup or in and the price is justyeah.

Track 1: And we'realso reminded right on LinkedIn every day, Hey, buyer behavior is changing.What are you doing about it? So we're constantly reminded about it.

The Evolution of B2B Buying Processes

Track 1: So what I'mgonna say is that yes, it's complex, but it is getting much better.

Track 1: It's alreadyclosing a lot of gap that we see compared to what it was, right, where it wasvery unsexy checklist type of let's say process. Now it's very much resemblesthe whole B2C type. So it came a long way, but we still have a long way to go.And in some industries we still see this unsexy checkpoint type of activity.

Track 1: Likeautomotive, for example, is still very much there, but even there it'schanging, which is very positive trend. And I think we are gonna get to a pointwhere it is very much [00:19:00] consumer likeprocess.

Challenges in Simplifying the Buying Process

Track 1: Another dayI was talking to one of my sales leaders and he said. Hey, Anna. I wish ourbuying process was done in one day and I was like, I was very hard.

Track 1: I waslaughing very hard. I was like, oh, you keep dreaming, keep dreaming. But thenit, he triggered me and I thought, oh, why not? Right? Why can't we indeed makeit so simple so it can be done in one day? Why do we need to make itcomplicated?

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:I think the most important part is the DNA of TomTom is from BDC at thebeginning. So you have like that proof that you understand why not justbridging the gap. And I really like the idea of the why not of the, that's howthings are, but ultimately we have all of the power to change it, especially inenterprise, when you know that you have the vision, you know the stakeholders,and you're able to work on long-term initiatives. If compared to yourcompetitors, you are able to only taking a day. It's tremendous. It's awesomeand it's really putting the [00:20:00] buyer atthe center of all of it without going back to archaic checklists likeautomotive.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:Like in, in addition to talking about PMM uh, Anna you, you speak quite a lotabout buyer enablement. Curious, like from your experience so far, like howdoes buyer enablement work towards that one-day sales cycle that you and yoursales leader were talking about? I.

Track 1: So I'm notthere yet with the whole buyer enablement. I'm still learning. To be honestI've been in my current role where I'm currently leading the sales and buyerteam only less than a year. So I'm still trying the waters and differentthings. So maybe ask me in a year from now how it's going, but I think thereis, a significant change that I'm looking at as to how things need to progress.So one is that the whole so there's of course sales enablement and there'sbuyer enablement and you need both. But then, they are [00:21:00]also a bit separate from each other because they, although they have one goalin common to help the buyers to make the best decision in the purchasingprocess, they're also a bit sep.

Track 1: They have alot of separate activities and you need to separate them. And this how Iexperienced right now in seed. So from asales enablement perspective it's all about the what, right? What weneed to give the sales so that they can help the buyers to make that decision.And it's very much already when the sales holds on to the buyer, when they'rein conversation.

Track 1: If you look at the buyer enablement, thatstarts way earlier than when. A buyer talks to the seller, and that happensalready. The moment when you just start thinking, okay I might have a problem.What is the solution? And you start Googling or ChatGPT if you wanna say that. And that necessarilydoes not involve the salesperson.

Track 1: It involves you as a company being outthere. The moment the buyer realizes that. [00:22:00]I might have a problem. I'm noteven sure I have a problem, but tell me I have a problem. Help me learn what isout there so I can make my company better. Did that answer yourquestion?

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:Very much and I like how you split the, you put a hard line and say they're twodifferent things. And I think from my perspective, too much focus is on salesenablement, not enough about buyer enablement. And it's because they thinkthey're like the same thing, right? If you hand a buyer a one pager, that's notthe same thing as , giving them an easy path to making the right decision. Soyeah, that's, I like that.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:I'm like, Eric, I'm, I may have to disagree with you because I dare I say thisand I'm not sure I'll ever say this again, and I don't wanna ever say thisagain.

The Role of Marketing in Buyer Enablement

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:don't what it is like when you were describing buyer enablement on it, itsounded like you're describing a lot about marketing. It [00:23:00] sounds a lot like, Hey, we want to getfurther.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:You want to prime the audience before they start thinking about you as anorganization. You wanna educate on the problem. You want to get them aware ofthe problem, so when they realize it, they make a closer association to yourorganization as being the solution. Is that what I'm hearing?

Track 1: Yeah. Yeah.Because PM M's supposed to know the best, what's needed, right? In terms of,okay, how we can explain our product out there in the best way so that myaudience understands it, but also they know what is the journey out there,right? So they can help the sales to say, Hey, we right now need to focuson, let's say, telling this story versus the other story.

Track 1: And same formarketing, right? We can help marketers, the ones who do the say, the hardwork, getting that awareness out there to say. This is the message you needto [00:24:00] bring, right? This is thecase study. You need to, let's say, shine on that ad, for example, right?So to let 'em know we are there and we are in product marketing.

Track 1: We are bestpositioned for that specifically. At least

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:So with,

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:so one more clarifying question. Is that, going back to that buyer enablementpiece, is that you're now saying. Hey, like we need to be in front of the buyerbefore the problem even exists. And for like when I was in sales, Anna, Ineed leads. I don't care what you get the leads from, I. Go get me leads. Isee you are only going to this industry conference. Like, why are you not goingto this hospital? Why are you not going here? So like with buyerenablement, how does that inform where you take your message at?

Track 1: I think what a lot of people don't realize is thatbuyer enablement takes time. It [00:25:00]will take time, right? If youneed to educate the buyer. You can't expect them to let's say switch theirbehavior just like that, right? So in that sense, don't think buyer enablementis a panacea for getting leads.

Track 1:Unfortunately whoever in sales listening to this, I don't think it's a panacea.It's a long-term thing. And it's also a continuous effort, right? It's also inthe power of sales to educate, not just in the power of marketers, but when weget leads, right? So there's a, the whole debate currently going on aboutshould you gate the content, should you not gate the content, right?

Track 1: So that'sone part of the equation.

The Importance of Effective Collateral

Track 1: Another partof the equation is that actually we as marketers also need to do a better jobat guaging what exactly buyers need. Why? Because I recently saw a statistic by G2 report that actually.Enterprises, at least enterprises, I'm not sure about startups, but enterpriseslose [00:26:00] $2.3 million every year on the collateral that's either neverused or collateral that's actually been thrown away and rehashed bysalesperson, like creating a Frankenstein out of it.

Track 1: So that's a big figure. That's a lot ofwaste and we definitely need to. Let's say rethink as to, okay, what collateralwe produce and is it worth producing, and what outcome do we want thebuyer to, like, what do they want? What do we want buyer to do with thiscollateral? Or is it just because somebody screamed very loud and said, can youproduce that brochure?

Track 1: Right?Because that's how it happens today. Somebody screams very loud, but nobodyasks questions. What do we want the buyer to do with this collateral?

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:This is linking really close to a discussion that Eric and I had this morning.The loudest voice is really the person that is like, I don't remember. Do youhave the quote?

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:I'm saying the

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:quote, but I don't

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:Yeah. The loudest in the [00:27:00] room rarelyis right.

Track 1: Yeah. So Ithink that's also the where we also need to get to realization. So it's notnecessarily the titles that matter, right? But what are we trying to achieve?

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:I really like that point 'cause I'm not sure if you all remember this, butlike, I feel like at the early start of the pandemic, I started noticing aninteresting trend where, because you were not in a face-to-face interactions asmuch as before, it really forced people to use the written word to get theirpoint across. So it's very hard to yell for a one-pager over Slack unless yourcaps lock key is broken. So like it was, I think it was harder, I noticed itwas harder for like sales leaders or individuals to make those requests likethat. Because like you said, Anna. Now you have to really think through, youlike think through like, Wait, why do I want this?

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:What are we trying to achieve here? And it created a [00:28:00] buffer to reflect on is this necessary?And if not, what? What do we need to do here? So now I'm, that's reallyexciting to hear that piece.

Fun Segment: The Torture Chamber Game

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:Do we have any time for a little fun.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:Yes, but I have,

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:a question before

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:Okay.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:really short one. So Anna, you're seeingthat you're a Jedi of product marketing and I know we're all big Star Warsfans. If you are a Jedi of product marketing, what is considered the dark side?

Track 1: Oh man. It's gonna be to death byPowerPoint.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:Yeah.

Track 1: It's gonnabe the all those PowerPoints. Oh God, yes.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:Yeah. As, yeah, I

Track 1: Jokes. Jokesaside, we're actually trying to implement no PowerPoint policy right now,

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:All right. Let's have a little fun then. [00:29:00]All right, so we have a torture chamber device that we've modified. It'snormally used for messaging purposes only, in which we force you into a littlephone booth, and we give you option A or option B. You must pick one of thoseoptions no matter how terrible they are to you.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:So I've rigged it up, we've got rid the messaging, and we want this to totallybe around the buyer journey and the buyer experience. Ms. Anna, do youunderstand the rules of the game?

Track 1: As long asit's not electric chair, I'm fine.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:Depending on some of the choices, you may take that back and want the electricchair, but we'll start off with the first question. Would you require a lengthyregistration form before a demo or just not offer them a demo at all?

Track 1: Oh, that'sbad, Eric. That's bad.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:[00:30:00] It's only worse from here.

Track 1: it's gonnaget worse, right? That's You have

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:to pick one.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:Progressively.

Track 1: I think I'mgonna go with not giving so not the form. I hate forms

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:So no demo. You can

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:only buy

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:the product and talk to sales. No demo. All right. Would you insist a one sizefits all product without customizations or offer so many choices that it causesdecision paralysis?

Track 1: I think one,one the one that fits all and no customization.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:Require really rigid contract terms with no flexibility or just have vaguestatements that change whenever you want.

Track 1: I think thewit, unfortunately, the.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:[00:31:00] All right. Have a really complexpricing structure, which you basically need a calculator and a calculus degreefor, or hidden fees that surprise buyers later on.

Track 1: No. Why.

Track 1: Fine. Thecalculator is better, to be honest, because I hate when people don't putpricing. I seriously I can't hand, I can't send it.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:All right. Offer customers. Basically their only option to buy is through highpressure sales tactics or

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:have an indifferent

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:sales approach. With no follow ups.

Track 1: ooh. You'rereally master of this chamber to say,

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:I'm getting good

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:at know what I would actually take it as a challenge and I would do no followups. I would I would be curious what you can achieve with [00:32:00] that.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:the good old one and done.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:All right, and the last question, right? Every single discussion with the buyerhas to be in an all in an in-person meeting or completely asynchronous andnever talk to a salesperson.

Track 1: Uh,

Track 1: I thinknever talk to sales person. I, again, I'll consider it as a challenge. I wouldtry and, i.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:All right. You can unlock your chains. You are now out of the torture chamber.

Anna's Initiatives and Closing Remarks

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:We wanted to ask you, you've got a few cool things going on, like a newsletterand all that. We wanted to ask. Especially for our audience who wants to learnmore about you, follow along.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:Where can we direct them and where can they find you?

Track 1: So I'm notselling anything. I am not a consultant. I'm just a very passionate productmarketer. I want to spread the, let's say the craftmanship out there. That'smy. Give back to [00:33:00] community. So Istarted writing my newsletter. Indeed, I think there's so many newsletters, buthey that's also my way of giving something.

Track 1: So on, onLinkedIn, I have my product Marketing Pulse. I launched last March. I think Iget so far very good feedback. And it's not just for product marketers. I basedon LinkedIn statistic, I saw that also founders and marketers and productmanagers that benefit from it. It's something that I just do monthly.

Track 1: I would loveto do more like podcasts and stuff, but I'm a mother of a 1-year-old, so Idon't have that luxury. So that's one. I started to post more often onLinkedIn, but I'm again not a. Typical LinkedIn poster, but if you, let's sayfrom time to time, I have something cool out there. So the follow button isalways welcome.

Track 1: No pressure.And yeah. I'm also doing right now a lot of, let's say collaboration withuniversities because I'm really believe we need junior product marketers outthere that already come with a little bit of a [00:34:00]nudge of product marketing but also some of the corporate still, right.

Track 1: Marketingmisunderstood right. That's the motto, unfortunately. So I do a little bit ofboth. So I help universities. That's my goal this year to do two lectures forthe new marketers out there, spread the word about product marketing. And yeah,from time to time, I sometimes the trainings help, to help again, also tospread the word.

Track 1: And I said,I'm not telling anything. This is pure voluntary work.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:That's awesome.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:As you learn, as we learned earlier from you, it's not about sales, it's aboutthe research.

Track 1: Yeah. Yeah.It's about curiosity, Zach. It's about curiosity.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:I'm like, you educating me? I'm like, you are right. I'm scratching that out ofmy vocabulary. You will never hear me say that word. It's only about curiosity.Here

Track 1: The problemwith research, it can die in that word or PowerPoint, and if.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:you see, you see our brand logo like we're skeletons. [00:35:00]We already dead.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:You know, Annie, I'm gonna let the other guys disagreed with me if they want,but thank you so much. This was like a really great way to spend a Wednesdayafternoon for us, evening for you.

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:And we learned a lot, particularly around how to not be shitty buyer enablers.Thank you so much

eric-holland_1_02-21-2024_151249:for coming on.

zach-_1_02-21-2024_121249:I.

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:It

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:was great. Thank

gab_1_02-21-2024_151249:you very much.

Track 1: Yeah. Thanksa lot.

Thank you for listening to We're Not Marketers. If you likewhat you heard, please subscribe, review our podcast, and share this episodewith other PMMs. Thanks again and see you soon.

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