The unconventional highway to product marketing, with Harvey Lee

Welcome to the Misfit Podcast: Unveiling the Unconventional

[00:00:00]

We are podcasts for product markets and B2B SaaS who feelmisunderstood of what they do. From someone who truly gets what you do.Basically help you feel less like a misfit to being unignorable in your role.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:You too.

Introducing Harvey Lee: From Business to Rockstar

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:We, Hey, we got a special guest with us here across the pond from UK. . It'sHarvey Lee. He's got a new book that's coming out. He's going to tell us moreabout Backstage Pass, a business book that's far from conventional. Thisis a PMM by day, rockstar by night. And luckily for us, he's here to give usthe deeper dive on product marketing and his passion. Harvey. Nice to meet youhere. Nice to see you.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:You can tell we've done this before.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:That is a hell of a, that is a hell of a way to set the stage. And it'sfantastic to be here. What a great event this is, my book might be

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:far from unconventional, far from conventional, but being on your podcast, I

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:think it also

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:matches the same criteria,

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:doesn't

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:[00:01:00] It Look, hey, you're the rock star.I can imagine the shows you host. Are a lot more spicier than what we're goingto be talking about. So

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yeah, let's see how much

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:time we have to

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:go into some of that.

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:it is fitting, right? Like, A few unconventional misfits and us three, on,

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yeah, that's me.

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:and it was a no brainer when I think it was Zach, you mentioned Harvey and Iwas like, yep, get them on

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yeah. Unconventional is probably my number

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:one brand

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:attribute.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:We're going to, we're going to dive more into that here, Harvey. But before wedo, you've heard the podcast before we got the question um, every guestanswers. Let's pass it over to Gab to kick it off.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:Thank you.

The Great Marketing Debate: Are Marketers Really Marketers?

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:Um, So Harvey. Are product marketers actually marketers? Why or

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:why not?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yeah. Are product

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:marketers. I have a long winded answer for that based on insight [00:02:00] and data from the

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:market. Are you ready to jump

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:in? There is no, I have two answers. One answer is yes. And one answeris no. Let's look at the no answer. The no answer is in thecontext of today, right? If we think about marketing as it is today in the erathat we're in, right?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:If we think about all marketing it's in a pretty sorry state, all of marketing that sits under the CMO isall in a sorry state. And why is that? It's basically because thefragmentation of the marketing department has shattered all the different rolesthat a single marketer used to have into 10 or 12 shards, right?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Rough edge shards. You've got the growth marketer, you've got the brandmarketer, you've got the performance marketer, you've got the digital marketer.Guess what? There's only actually one kind of marketing. But we seem to haveended up in a place where the marketing departments [00:03:00]has forgotten that, and that marketing now has become a specialism and you nailyour colors to the mask of I'm a performance marketer and I'm a digitalmarketer.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And guess what? It doesn't really work very well together, unless you'reparticularly lucky and you have a fantastic CMO and there are some fantasticCMO and all the people on the team just know how to work homogeneouslytogether, right? But more often than not, it's not the case. So in the contextthat, product marketing is a part of that, we are one of the shards, right?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And 65 to 70% of us report into the marketing department and there's just nogetting away from that because of the fragmentation of the department. I wouldeven question whether marketers are even marketers. Anymore.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Right. And Here's my, point of view. Whatis the definition of a marketer now?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Nevermind product marketers.We're a subcategory. What is the definition of a marketer [00:04:00] now?The sad reality of most marketers, not all I have to say of most marketers are,they are basically campaign managers. They are there to run campaigns. They arethere to choose colors from the Pantone swatch book, talk about what color the buybutton should be, and so on and so forth.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And for me, really, that's notthe full value of marketing. Whatis the goal of marketing? All up, it's value creation. We're here to createvalue for the customer and value for the organization. If you're just runningendless email campaigns all day long, or you're head of in-app notificationsor whatever your job title is, right?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Are you really creating valuefor the customer? Really? So from that point of view, we're not marketers. Butneither are marketers. So there you go. And on that bombshell, maybe weshould think about the alternative point of view. [00:05:00]My point of view is very much, and this is where I come from a value creationpoint of view as an all up, what I think is a well rounded marketer and productmarketer as well.

A Dive into the History and Evolution of Brand Management

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:We need to take a quick history lesson. So if we look at

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:the alternative answer, which was, yes, we're marketers that is groundedin where marketing or brand marketing really started. And I made a printout. Iknow that people listening can't see it. This is,

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:have you ever heard of the McElroy Memo?

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:No, have not.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:All right.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:We are

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:going, we are

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:having an MBA marketing

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:lesson

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:We're here.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:for it, let's do jumping in.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:May 13, 1931 Cincinnati at the Procter and Gamble offices. They used to only becategory managers in marketing. That was it. You had category managers and partof the problem with the category managers in the 1930s at P&G, which was anearly stage company, but they still had brands like Ivory soap, [00:06:00] Kame soap.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Some of these brands are still around. The problem that they had is they're allin competition with each other. And the resources were just thinly spreadacross. And he who shouts loudest wins right inside the company. Guess what? Itstill happens today to some point, doesn't it? And Neil McElroy, who was the,um, category manager for, I think it was Ivory soap at the time was incompetition with Kame soap, who was the market leader at the time.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And he. Out of his pain, he invented a new way to do marketing and it wascalled brand management. Now we, we were just like, Oh, that's ridiculous. We,of course we all know brand management, but brand management didn't start untilMay the 13th, 1931 in Cincinnati, when he wrote this document. And thisdocument is very famous in upper marketing circles, in academia and MBA andprofessors.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I got it from an MBA professor who I studied under. This is a copy of theoriginal, by the way, you can see the typing. [00:07:00]This is the actual, not the real one, but it's a facsimile of it, right? AndI'm going to read you his five point plan for the invention of the brand, whathe called the brand man, but we'd call it the brand person now, but thebrand person or the brand man, listen to this five point.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:This five point study that Neil McElroy himself wrote down in his memo to hisgeneral manager, Mr. W.D. Werner where brand development is and by the way, thelanguage on this is so 1931 is brilliant. You'll laugh your head off, right?Where, brand development is read where my product is failing.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Right.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:A. Study the past advertising and promotional history of the brand. Study theterritory personally at first

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:hand, both dealers and consumers in order to find out the trouble.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:What do we think that's called

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:these days? It's called "discovery".

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:Oh, love that. Right. B, after uncovering our weakness, develop a plan that canbe applied to this local sore [00:08:00] spot.They love language. This local sore spot. It is necessary, of course, not tosimply work out the plan, but also to be sure that the amount of money proposedcan be expected to produce results at a reasonable cost per case. What do wecall that? ROI. It's 1931, folks. We're in Cincinnati. Time and a place. Point#3. Let us Outline this plan in detail that to the division manager who's underjurisdiction, the weak territory is obtained his authority and support for thecorrective action.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:What do we call that?

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:Buy-in

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Buy Buy into

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:the go to market

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:plan.

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:Executive sponsorship.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Here we go. Here we go. We've got two more.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Hold your hats, folks. We're just getting warmed up. D. Prepare sales helps andall other necessary material for carrying out the

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:plan. Pass it on to the districts. Work with the salesmen while they aregetting started. Follow [00:09:00] through tothe very finish to be sure that there is no letdown in sales operation of the

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:plan.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:What do we call that? Gab?

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:Sales

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:enablement, baby. And finally, we've got to flourish at the end here. E. Keepwhatever records are necessary and make whatever field studies are necessary todetermine whether the plan has produced the expected results. OKRs

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:KPIs.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:Bye.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So my point is there anything in that's not a product marketer?

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:No, that's.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:just used to call it a brand man, right? That was the invention of whathe called the brand man. Now what's really interesting, and I'm going to getinto real marketing. Now what's really interesting is you, if you fast forward,decades from 1931, where the brand man or the brand function was created as, arole, as a job by Neil McElroy, 1931 in Cincinnati. To [00:10:00]today, even it hasn't changed the brand manager and titles are meaningless. By the way, the brand manager in a consumerpackage goods company, like a Unilever, a P&G, you name it. Is essentiallya product marketer with P&L responsibility. They just have a differenttitle. The problem for product marketers is they lack influence because theydon't have P&L responsibility. They have to influence without authority.But if you were a product marketer, ie. a brand manager at a consumer packagedgoods firm, you would be a very powerful, influential person.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:You work with the product team, you with the sales team, you do all the, it'sall product marketing, but take that role, that function and everything thatthey do out of a consumer package goods team and put them in the B2B SaaS team.All of a sudden you are head of pitch decks.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:You get

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:me?

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:we're hearing

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yeah.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So, the answer is [00:11:00] yes. The answer isyes. We're marketers. But change The context.

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:That's, That's incredible.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:That's awesome. Like you, you said it, it's like

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:an MBA on a podcast right

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:now.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:There you go. Yes,

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:Our listeners who are paying attention, he just took a MBA document

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:and he just story told the shit out of that

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:thing.

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:And now I am locked

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:in. That is, That was so good. So I have a question for you

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yes, mate - go on.

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:What was the biggest, what do you think was the biggest change that took thebrand man, aka product marketer into slide deck champion?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yeah.

The Shift in Product Marketing: From Full Spectrum to Pitch Decks

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I think it's a bit of a sorry tale, really. And again, it's not just productmarketers. It's unfortunately the sorry state of the marketing department ingeneral, really, and we suffer a consequence of that, if we think about thehistory of product marketing. So we'll just come up, [00:12:00]we'll just come up to a little bit more sort of recent history.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:When I've been doing product marketing since the nineties, right? Somebodycalled me the OG

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:of Product Marketing on a call the

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:other day. I'm so old. I had to ask my wife what OG

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:meant, right?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And my son looks at me

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:like, dad, as you shake, he's walking away, shaking his

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:head. And I was like,

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:how could you, how could I

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:be so embarrassed? Anyhow, by the by

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:hope I can tell my son one day that I'm

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:You're certainly the OG of

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:sneakers.

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:no

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I'm sorry, come on, man. And merch

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:let's face it. Your

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:Maybe in, maybe in B2B. Maybe in B2B, maybe we can give it that title. Butyeah, go ahead.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So I've been doing productmarketing since the 90s, but, and I started off in B2C and I think B2C is agreat schooling for product marketers and marketers in general, because there'sno hiding from the customer because your buyer is the customer, right?Um, And the customer is the buyer. However, that's by-the-by.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So I started in the mid nineties and it was very full spectrum, a little bitmore like [00:13:00] consumer packaged goodsscenarios where you're doing everything. You've got P& L responsibility.I've been there, done that, had all of that. And then what really happened to product marketing? Was in 2000and around 2010 the internet changed everything.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:It's not because the internet arrived in 2010, of course it didn't. But what happened was the cloud and the SaaSbusiness model exploded around 2010. And I always make the case, right?I always make the case. Product marketers. Allproduct marketers are 14-year-old teenagers because product marketing didn'tstart until 2010 from that point of view.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Lord, how I would love to be a teenager again. I'm 56 now, so I'd love to be 14again, but, you know, the reality of the matter is that if you look at the data if you look at the data about 80 to 90percent of product marketers are in B2B SaaS, right? When we talk aboutproduct marketing, we just, it's like the Kleenex moment.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:We [00:14:00] justassimilate product marketing to B2B SaaS. It's one of the same, but it'sactually not true. Even though the majority of product marketers are, again, when you slice and dice the data and you seethat 65 percent of product marketers have been doing it for less than fiveyears, and a third have been doing it for less than three.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Product marketing as a functionin the B2B context is actually extremely nascent. We take it forgranted, but again, this is why this is why the skills. In some cases arelacking. This is why the function ismisunderstood. Both by organizations and by

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:individuals doing productmarketing themselves, no matter how cool it is.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And it is cool to be a productmarketer. I've nailed my colors to the mast a long time ago before anybody elsecame along. I think I was, whistling from a supper by myself for many

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:years.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Um, But

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:Back in Xbox.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:uh, yeah, probably about that time, even before I was a product marketer, I wasa full stack [00:15:00] marketer at Virgin as aproduct marketer before that.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So I was in and out of product marketing, but yeah, I agree with MadisonLeonard actually, that I think that if you have a full stack marketingbackground, I think it's just the best pathway into product marketing. Iwouldn't be able to do what I do without it. And we'll come on to, to, to thatin a moment.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:But I think that one of the, back to your point about how did we end up doing pitch decks? I think this is how weended up doing pitch decks because from about 2010, the fragmentation of themarketing department really was underway. The internet blew everything overopen. If you look at the competitive landscape, you look at the Martecheverybody knows the MarTech landscape, right?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:10 years ago, there was like sixcompanies and now there's 20, 000. Yeah. I mean, I mean, Please. I mean, It'sreal, but it's ridiculous, isn't it? Really? And it's like, how are you goingto compete? Come on. Oh, we'll get a product marketer. That'll help us standout. And it's like, How are you going to stand out in 20, 000 companies?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:No one's taking any callsanymore. So the role has evolved [00:16:00] becausethe market has evolved and we're having to learn new tricks all the time. Learnthings like narrative design and different ways to stand out and keep up withthe trends and this, that and the other, but at the same time, because thefunction is still quite nascent and nobody really appreciates that it is, theskills aren't quite there yet in many cases.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And 65 percent of productmarketers have been doing it for less than five and many don't have a marketingbackground. So they're really just starting from scratch, you know, theyhaven't got the substance that I fortunately have coming to the role. Theystruggle, right? And so do the organizations.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:That's the point is if theorganizations were mature and really got it, then they'd be like let'sonboard you properly and let's do the proper work, but it's not the case.And especially in the startup world, you know, a lot of founders who areeither the lead salesperson, the lead product person on the market and the sortof unassumed CMO all at the same time.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:They're just like, Oh, thank God we got our first product marketer. I need apitch deck. And it's like, that's [00:17:00]just how it, that's just how it is. And that's how we ended up here. Becauseit's still nascent. So there's still a long way to go. However, if you, here'sthe thing that nobody talks about, but couldn't be more true, if you, look atproduct marketing in B2C in big organizations, it's super mature.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:It's been around for 30 years. If you go to Microsoft any of the big CPGcompanies, any of the big tech companies, Google, this, that, and the other,they just get it. I started around that time as, as well. But it never, forsome reason, never made the leap to B2B. B2B and B2C from an organizationalpoint of view and from a functional point of view, that product market is likenight and day, right?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So if you really want to grow in, and here's the thing, right? If you reallywant to grow as a product marketer. Go to a

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:big B2C

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:organization.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:Sounds like you

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:got the backstage pass right

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:there.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Oh, that's the segue way.

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:Spicy.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I've been I've been there. I've been, there. mate.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:Like we said earlier in the conversation,

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:Harvey, you're [00:18:00] writing this newbook, Backstage Pass, like you shared a little bit of insights. Whatwould a product marketer who is the 65% who's not a full stack, let's see, likeGab's got it. Harvey's got it. I don't know Eric, if you got the book

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:I don't got

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:the book.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:Come on, guys. You need it.

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:I don't have it on my Kindle, sitting next to me like Gab does.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:So going back to the question.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:The 65% who's not coming from a marketing background, who decides to read thisbook, what are they going to get away from your book to, to get a betterunderstanding of becoming a full stack marketer, to be more successful as aproduct marketer today?

Navigating the Pathways to Product Marketing Mastery

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yeah, no that's, that's actually a really great uh, question. The key to the book really is to help youunderstand that all pathways are valid. All pathways can lead to thedestination. And even though you have a destination in mind, it's the journeythat matters. It's a part of the journey that matters too.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And [00:19:00] that what you're going to learnis the sweat and tears and laughs along. Therewill be sweat, tears, and laughs along the way, as I've laid my soul out barein the book and demonstrated and you'll have that, you'll have that too in yourown way, right? Every experience is unique, but out of every experience comesan opportunity.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:It's the old adage of, one door closes, another one opens. With the pathways into product marketingbeing so varied, mine's pretty extreme. From rock and roll to video games to, Idon't know what into product marketing, but here's the thing about productmarketing.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And I think this is one of the good things about it is, It doesn't really matter. Your background doesn't matter thatmuch. What really matters is that you fit right. And I don't mean, be amisfit or this, that, and the other.In fact, I would argue that all product marketers in the way are a misfit.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I think all product marketers iswe're unloved or a misfit, but you know what? That's why my newsletteris called Below The Waterline becausethe work we do [00:20:00] can't be seen. But yet it makes up, we seethings that other people can't see. And in a way that's our superpower, butalso it's our Achilles' heels at the same time, because the CMO of theorganization can't see it, they decide not to invest in it and so on and soforth.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So it's a little bit behind the mirrored doors kind of thing. You've got to be a special breed to be aproduct marketer. you've got to be able you've got to be a master communicator.You'll see all the use cases in the book. And all the stories and things that Iwent through in the book about all my communication challenges, you've got to be able to deal with things asthey come, adversity, when you least expect it, you've got to be an enormous team player, even when you don'tfeel like it, or it doesn't make sense, all of these things that I went through in my rock and rollcareer.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I didn't realize it at the time, set me up really well for being a productmarketer. I had no clue. So my whole story about how I ended up in productmarketing is in the book. And little did I know that being a tour manager,being a roadie, [00:21:00] doing all thosethings on the road was the perfect breeding ground.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I got no pitch decks. No pitch decks, right? It was completely analog, butagain, it's the attributes and the qualities that that, that builds that, thatcan grow a product market, a

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:really good product

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:marketer. When you layer on top being agood practitioner, a learner and practitioner of marketing as a functionitself, then really it's like the blue touch paper

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:off we

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:go.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:I feel like this this interview is like an MBA right now. You're going back andforth on like the start of product marketing by also like your, Your hugecareer it. Uh, I just want to kind of go back a little bit to what you said.

The Nuances of Transitioning to Product Marketing from Various Backgrounds

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:You said earlier that you were a full stack marketer and it really helped youto transition into being a product marketer, or we can say the, the ancestry ofthe brand man a little bit that you, you Um, My question is, if you had to rank the level of difficulty [00:22:00] intobecoming a really good and great product marketer, what would you rank in termsof difficulty level from me, for example, that have a marketing background,Zach that has a sales background, and Eric that has a CS background? In termsof level of difficulties, what do you think would be first

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I would. Easily put somebodywith a full stack marketing background on a easier path. I think you're goingto have an easier path. Do you want, do I need to hold up scorecards? I'd,I'd say, I'd say that was a eight out of10 in terms of ease. I think being a market, having a marketing back, if you'rea good marketer, by the way, as you probably know, most marketers aren't verygood.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Sorry to say it. It's true.It's, but it's true. Look at the data. 54 percent of marketers have no trainingin marketing, right? That's why we have these ridiculous conversations with themarketing

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:team. Or as Mark Ritson, a professor Mark Ritson calls them the coloring in [00:23:00] team. Right. Because they sit therewith crayons, designing campaigns with pretty colors going, Oh, I thinkyellow works. Um, And I've got lots of friends who are great marketers, bythe way. So I say this in jest, it has an element

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:of truth. I have

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:nothing but respect

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:for great

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:marketers. Right.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:And even, Even if they have training, it's sometimes irrelevant or it just

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:doesn't put out with like the tech side and just having to focus on differentfunctions and having everything being agnostic and working together.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:mean here's an even moreshocking statistic. 80 percent

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:of CMOs have no marketingtraining

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:either.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:Wow.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:80%, And that came from marketing magazine, from their career and salarysurvey. So the person leading the department has less training than half thepeople in his department or her department.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So whenever I see a great marketer John Evans has got a great podcast as well,called the CMO. When I see a great CMO. I read something or see them online.It's I stop and listen because I know I'm going to learn something. But that, Ijust wish there was more of them. Right. [00:24:00]So back to your question, 8/10 in level of ease for a marketing background. Ithink sales is interesting. It just depends, right? If you're in B2C, itmatters less. The sales experience matters less because there's more degrees ofseparation between you and the sales team. Your relationship with the salesteam in B2C is not as important.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:It's important, but it's not as important. They just become another functionthat you need to service. But in B2B, we're all joined at the hip. We're stuckin the middle. This hip's joined to the product team. This hip's joined to thesales team. We're doing 6, 12, 18 month nurture campaigns.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And I don't know what else. And, that relationship with the sales team. So Ithink is really important, especially in B2B. So if you're going to go into B2B SaaS, I think a salesbackground is really strong. If you're going to orient towards the sales team.And again, I think the new one, there's lots of nuance here as well.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:If you're going to be in anorganization that is sales orientated instead of marketing orientated, then Ithink having a sales background [00:25:00]works really well. If you'regoing to go to an organization. Let's call it Apple or a Nike, which aremarketing orientated. They're re that, they know what they're, they really knowwhat they're doing.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Everything is market and value creation. Then I don't think the salesbackground is going to help you. I think the marketing background is going tohelp, right? So again, it just depends. I think it's just, they're all greatquestions, but they're all just a little bit too black and white and a bit toosquared off at the edges to give a straight answer because we live in a worldthat isn't straight.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:It's just how it is. So you have to consider the nuance and I think from a CSpoints of background. So I'd give sales six and a half to seven, six out of 10,um, on one and seven out of 10 for another it's easier if you're going to be inB2B than it is a B2C only because it's not easy, but it's just less relevant.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:CS. I'm just not so sure. I've, I know some great product marketers that got CSbackground, And maybe it's just me because I've just [00:26:00]been around marketing, for so long and I've studied it and been a practitionerof it for I don't know how long at quite a level that I'll put CS and productmanagement in the same bucket. I think a lot of CS people, not all, causethere's just no sweeping generalization, but a lot of CS people, a lot ofproduct managers struggle with being product marketers because they don't havethe marketing background. But then of course, it again, depends on the nuanceof the organization you work for.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:It may not be a hindrance. But so I think when I hear a product manager say,Oh, I want to get into product marketing, I'm like, I hear products andmarketing goes in the bin. It's cause they're not going to do any marketing.

Debunking Marketing Myths: Beyond 'Build It and They Will Come'

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:They think just because they have a product, it's going to market itself.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:It's that it just doesn't work that way. This old adage, I read it was reallyreading a great consulting book at the moment by Alan Weiss called MillionDollar Consulting. And he's got this phrase in it and he says this, thephrase build it and they'll come is a complete nonsense. I don't know whoinvented that, [00:27:00]

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:whoever

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:invented that

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:years ago. I have no

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:idea, but you

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:from a, it's from an American movie Field Of Dream.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:was just,

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:Dreams, and it's now been adopted into B2B Sass, and I agree with you. it's,the most bullshit, hogwash

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yeah, it's the biggest eyes rolling in the back of your head moment you couldpossibly have, right? And I have heard senior leaders say that on stage itsales kickoffs and I'm just like, oh, just consistent. Enough is either forthem or for me. I don't know. I'll just do it to myself. You know, It's like,please enough uh, enough already. Um, But so he said, build it as company,forget about it, but build it,build it and tell them, and thenthey'll come makes more sense. Now the tell them bit is about the mark is thereference to marketing, right?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And that's the piece. A lot ofpeople are missing. Even a lot like, back to my earlier point that a lot ofmarketers aren't particularly great at marketing. Either, but I think that'sthe secret sauce.

The Importance of Marketing Training and Accessibility

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:It's if you can go and get, ifyou, and it is not [00:28:00] impossible is that in a way it's regardlessof your background, go and get some training.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Only 54 percent of, 54 percentof marketers, all marketers don't have training. Go and get yourself some goodtraining and it'll be fine. That's the beauty about today. The age that we livein is the education is now fully democratized. So it doesn't need

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:to cost a lot of money and it'sfully accessible.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:If you want to go Ivy league for$500, you

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:can.

,

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:vouch. I got a Cornell, uh, certificate specifically in product marketing, yougo.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:This

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:as expensive as a degree

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I know,

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:that. I know,

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:that. I know that

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:course. yeah,

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:Yeah,

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:you know, great stuff too. And Hey, so Harvey, I got a quick question for youyou're ready for this, but

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I'm sitting down.

Harvey's Journey: Leaving PMA and Embracing New Opportunities

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:you're doing your own thing

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:now.

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:I noticed.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yes, I am

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:doing my own

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:thing.

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:And so that means you left the PMA, and I am curious, cause I'm a nosy Ned,

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:what's [00:29:00] all that about?

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:Why'd you leave the PMA? I

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Some people think I

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:had some massive punch up with Rich King. In the

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:middle of London. It's not true. I didn't have it. We're still best. We'restill

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:mates.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Harvey Lee and Rich King?

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:I know. Cause

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:if there was some type of, you know, backstreet brawl with tickets, and Ididn't get an invite,

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:that's just,

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:You'd be miffed, right?

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:A crock, yeah, that's a crock of shit right there Harvey.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Well, Eric, I'm really sorry to disappoint you. It's not the case. Look, thereality of the matter is that things change all the time. And it's true for themarket. It's true for every company that's been going through changes in thepast couple of years. And guess what is true for the PMA as well.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:No company is immune to the things that have been going on in the past coupleof years and no individual, no matter their seniority, no matter how longthey've been in the game, nobody's immune, right? You, [00:30:00]me, the person next door, it doesn't make any difference. So things change allthe time.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And that means priorities change all the time. And our priorities changed. Andit's quite simple. It's quite that simple. I want to do more advisory work.Okay. I want to do more coaching work, which I'm now doing, there isn't aplace, there wasn't a place for me to do that at the PMA.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:The PMA wanted to do other things. I guess what? I don't tell anybody, but Idon't do go to market. I'm probably the only product marketer in the world. Itdoesn't do go to market. I'll tell you why in a minute. Boring as arse. But thethe reality of the matter is that it's time for us to do separate things.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:But the great thing is that the PMA are still one of my clients and I'm stillworking, I still do work for Rich and the Gang. And uh, continue. And, funnilyenough, that's how I started at the PMA about four years ago, I started as aconsultant um, 2019, actually, when there's six people in the office, there's [00:31:00] 120 now.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And they were making like shirt buttons every year. The quarterly return waslike shirt buttons and a piece of pocket fluff. And um, And it's a different,it's a different organization now. So they have different priorities. I havedifferent priorities and we're working together. And you know what? Who knowswhat can happen in the future?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Nobody knows. Do they? Nobody's got any, nobody's got anything figured out. Sofor now. I'm enjoying doing my advisory work and my coaching work. I'm

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:getting booked out to do some

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:speaking work as well soon. And Rich and the gang over there are doing theircourses and

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:their memberships and their summits

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:and and all the power to them.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And I'm happy to be still a part of it. Actually. It's

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:great.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:That's

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:incredible.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:That's

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:That

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:A quick follow up

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:a fairytale

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yeah. What's the real

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:reason?

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:The the real

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:reason,

eric-holland_1_03-22-2024_131333:Ha

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:are you, are you going to give us no, wait. wait. I was, I wasn't going

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:to ask that. Um, uh, it sounds like

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:that you pretty much gave us the reason right here from what I've got.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yeah, pretty much. I gave you the [00:32:00]glossy version here.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:Hey, if it's the opportunity to bring you back

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:on next time, we'll have it be more

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:behind the scenes. But going back to what you said more about training,

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:Harvey um, I know back in the day you were the, you were one of the mastermindsto the PMA scholar program. Am I right? Am I right in saying that?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I think mastermind is a little bit of an overinflation. I was the originaltutor on the Scotland, but it wasn't, it wasn't my idea. Uh, But I'll tell youwhat is my idea. The PMA global breakfast is my

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:Okay. Okay.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So the global breakfast. Briefings was my

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:idea. And idea. And I not only did all the strategy and discovery behind it.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I actually executed it as well for a year and a half. So in New York and SanFrancisco and London did it twice in London as well. And actually just thisweek they did it in New York, but Devon at Fluvio

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:was doing

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:it cause obviously I'm not there anymore.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:I saw that one.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yeah. So yeah, I invented that.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:That's my

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:baby.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:Well, I'm not going to ask

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:about the breakfast.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:About the

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:scholars.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:the scholars, too, because you mentioned earlier, you're like, okay, if you'rea new product marketer coming into [00:33:00]this space, you're going to have less experience. You're going to struggle tohave more influence

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:going to revenue here.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:Versus building slide decks when that course back, like going back to thatmoment in time, what were, what are the key competencies? What are the tipsthat like a new product marketer, or even like a product marketer who's been inthe game

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:for a minute needs to know to build more influence. So they're doing more ofthat strategic work that, like you said, a true bred marketer should be doingit, influencing revenue?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yeah, it's really, it's a great question. And it's also really difficult tosolve for because you're not in control of all the conditions. So I have thisphrase, I think I mentioned it in the book, which is called, I have thisphrase, which I use called create the conditions. And a lot of the workthat you'll need to do is to create the conditions for your future success, andthe success of your company, it won't happen by itself. So you have to createthe conditions. [00:34:00] Just to go back alittle bit. I think that this. Three, I've got as a hiring manager or a formerhiring manager myself, I've got three points of view, right? And then we'llflip it 180 degrees and then we'll get onto the actual individual themselves.

The Power of Fit in Hiring: A Personal Anecdote from Microsoft

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:My three points of view is whenyou're hiring and it's just as true for any other marketer or any other personat a company, but it's never truer than it is for product marketer is as ahiring manager, you're hiring for fit. You're hiring for fit and culture. Ifthey can't if you've got the best trained, most experienced product marketer inthe world, but they're a square peg in a round hole, it ain't going to work.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So you're hiring for fit numberone. And the reason that you're hiring for fit over anything else is that hardskills can be taught and soft skills can be mentored. If you get the rightperson, everything else can be dealt with, but it's not true the other wayaround, right? So as a hiring manager, always my [00:35:00] principles,always the basis of where I start from a quick story.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I think I even wrote about thison LinkedIn a couple of weeks ago. I hired someone who, when I was atMicrosoft, I was at Microsoft and the Xbox team for 12 years, and I hiredsomeone and they, It was a contractor role. It was a 12-month contract. It wasa junior role. It wasn't permanent, obviously. I saw a bunch of people who werevery experienced.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I couldn't get excited about anyof them, to be perfectly honest with you. And this one guy comes in and heworks in a supermarket, literally, I don't know, in the UK, it's Tesco. And heworks in a supermarket. So Tesco is the biggest supermarket chain in, in, inthe UK. I don't know what the equivalent in the U S would be, but it's huge.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And he comes in and he works full-time at Tesco and he runs a gaming fanzine inhis spare time. And don't forget this is for a job at X Box and he's aMicrosoft fanboy. And 25 years ago, there weren't very many Microsoft fanboys.I can tell you they're probably not that many now, but it was like rockinghorse do in those days.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:[00:36:00] Honestly, it was like impossible tofind. So, um, So he comes in, he does the interview and I just thought he's areally nice guy. And I could see him on my I could see him on my team. He hadno practical experience. I said, what do you do for a job? He says, I stacklettuce on the shelf. And I'm like, this is for a product marketing job.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I thought

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:you're hired.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And it's not because he's, it's not because he's stacked lettuce on a shelf isbecause he was such a great fit. He had such a great aptitude and he haddemonstrated outside of his lettuce stacking job, that. He was so driven by thecategory, you know, you know, his website. I remember going back 2002, 2003.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So it was a while ago. He had his own mailing list and he was more up to dateon the products. And I think I was, which was unbelievable as an external. AndI just thought I have to have you on my team. I can shape you. I can help you.I can help you grow. I can work with you. So I hired him. And long story, hegot his contract renewed three years in a row, which is [00:37:00] quite

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:unusual.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:In his first year, he won contractor of the year in the UK office. In yearfour, he got made a full

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:time Microsoft employee and he's still there

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:25 years

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:later.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:Wow.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:What a story.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Hire for fit.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:As a hiring manager, you havethe responsibility to grow your

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:people. Don't fall for the lawof attraction of trying to find a perfect fit with all the perfect skills,

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:because you won't find

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:them, they don't exist.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Just

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:you're looking in the wrong

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:places.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:I'm just curious if like you were the full on hiring manager or that you hadsomeone to report to, to explain

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:that

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:No, I was the full on hiring

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:manager.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:Okay. So you didn't have to say, Hey, this guy worked at Tesco

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:No, because it, because it was a

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:contractor role, there was less

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:checks and balances. People, they were just like,

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:If it doesn't work out, it'd be

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:gone. And we can get rid of it.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I don't know whatever.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So, So, there was less skin in the [00:38:00]game. So I just went to HR and I went.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Hire him. He's the one. And especially after I'd seen 20 people who were likeperfect fit on paper and they were all garbage, there was just like, bigmultinationals, they all look like great fits and walked in the door. And I'mlike, I can't work with you. You just won't fit in here.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:You will not get one. So there you go. And he's still there and he's doingreally well. And I'm absolutely thrilled for him. So let's flip back to youroriginal question. Cause I like to give both perspectives gaps. So what do youneed as an individual and as an individual?

Becoming a Full-Stack Marketer: Skills, Training, and Community

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:First of all, have a thinkabout. How you fit in a team, how you'd work in a team, how you would deal withthe kind of work you're going to be asked to do is a bit intimidating. It'sespecially if you've got very little experience, all of a sudden it's likedirect to revenue, direct to pitch deck, immediately answerable, no honeymoonperiod.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And it's just go, here's alaptop, go off you go and you've got to work it out. So you've got to have theaptitude and the desire and [00:39:00] the tenacity to work at it. All these reallyhard earned attributes. There's no easy path. There's no shortcuts, right? Beready for a hard slog.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:If you're not ready for a hardslog, this is not the job for you. This is not the job for you. If you want toturn up nine to five and pass a to B and paint and do the coloring in, fine,that's not this job, right? We all know that it's hard being a productmarketer. So be ready for that. It's also massively rewarding.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:I would say, even before youstart your job, start training. Start training for the hard skills because lotsof, especially in the current era right now, and there's a paradox here, right?So a lot of companies say, Oh yeah, we have L&D, L&D so important.We're going to retain all our stuff with L&D.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And then over the past fouryears L&D head count in big companies has been cut by 67%. So they say onething and do another. So don't hold your breath that you're going to get [00:40:00] anL& D program. It's becoming more and more common to be fair, but don'twait, right? Just go and do it. So get yourself trained.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:90 percent of product marketersdon't have any training. That's a shocker. As well, because it's notformalized. So get yourself certified, get yourself trained. Start jumping intothe community. One of the great thing places to start for product marketer iswe are blessed with community and the people in the community are veryproactive no other category I've ever worked in before. No other function. Idon't see other marketers behaving like this. I don't see I'm in a community ofillustrators as well, because I started doing illustrations on my LinkedIn andthat's a really small team, that's 20 people worldwide. But they all help eachother, the big ones and the little ones.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And they're so welcoming andproduct marketing is like that as well, but not every community is like that.So we're blessed. So get involved, jump in, start going to get involved on thePMA Slack, start going to events, start jumping on the virtual events. There'senough stuff for free to get [00:41:00] started.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:That is more than enough. So dothe job you want, even if it's not the job you have, right? You can do it. Itdoesn't have to cost you a lot of money. It's just take it on. So in terms ofskills, I actually think the best skills for a product marketer. Are generalmarketing skills. And that might sound a bit controversial. Whoa. What aboutwin-loss?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And I'm like, sod win-loss,right? What about market segmentation? Don't you think it's a bit moreimportant, right? You could leave win-loss to a vendor. Your vendor's not going to do market segmentation.So if you think about all up marketing, right. All of the, not the clients, butall of the startups that I hear about through the community, I speak to 20-30product marketers every single week through my consultancy and my advisoryservices and the PMA work, the work I do at the PMA.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And they all tell me the samething. Oh, we don't do segmentation. We just need a pitch deck And somepersonas. And I'm like, how can you make a [00:42:00]targeting decision? Oh, the CEOpicked this one. And I'm like that's like sticking the tail on the donkey witha, in a dark room, it's that is not marketing or product marketing, really.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:That's what we call guessing,right? It's called guessing. It's not marketing. So if you want to get paid forguessing, that's fine, but that's not what we do. Oh, it's not what we shoulddo. There are some fabulous marketing courses out there. If you want to learnproduct marketing, obviously PMA have a bunch Cornell has a course I've notdone that one, but you can tell me, I don't really think it's any good or not.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:CXL have one. There's plenty ofcourses, right? So there's plenty of choice. I think that the best all upmarketing course, all up

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:marketing course

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:is the one at Marketing Week,which is

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:professor Mark Ritson. That's

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:where I teach. I studied a fewyears ago. I went back to school after crashing out

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:of school when I was

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:15.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So if you wanna do a full stack marketing course, I would do the mini MBA atmarketing week. It's the best. It will move the needle for you in 12 weeks,right? So from a hard skills point of view, [00:43:00]that's that if you feel that you're lacking in soft skills, that's somethingyou can manage on the job to find a coach, find a mentor inside the company, orget a mentor before you even get to the company.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:If you, they have mentorships in the PMA subscription plan, actually. Sothere's options, right? There are options. The challenge is the need is huge.It's huge. I get two inquiries a day from junior product managers. Oh, couldyou help me with this? Could you help me with that? I need coaching here andcoaching there.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And of course, these days I charge for my services. So it's tough, but that Itried to point them in the right direction. So hopefully that answers yourquestion. So it was a bit of a long

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:winded

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:No, this is every, every sentence he dropped Harvey. That was, I was like valueadded right there.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:I, I, I'm still like in shocked of everything I learned today. Like I

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Oh, cause you disagree with everything and you think I'm a complete

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:Yeah, You know, I

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:The full stack marketing piece. We have a bone to pick with you on that one,but everything else is great.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:All right, [00:44:00] that's fine. You want tohave a tussle. Let's go.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:I'll book my next flight.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:No, but yeah,

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:no problem. No problem. I'm going to be in New York in June,

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:actually. So I don't know where you're, I don't know where you're

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:based

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:now.

Harvey's Book and Where to Find Him

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Cause you, um, So I'm coming over for the book awards because my book, thebooks won five awards and the latest was the Interdependent Press Awards at theend of June.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:So I'm coming over for the awards dinner because I heard that the summer moosewas really

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:nice.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:That's

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:If people, if people like want to hear more about you, like you listed us a lotof interesting and relevant training to get to that point of being a full onmarketer. Um, but Where can people find you? Where can people hear more aboutyou, about your knowledge, about that 25 years of experience and ultimatelyyour book as well?

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:Yeah, where can people get that?

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Yeah. Here it is. Shameless plug. Um, So you'll find me on LinkedIn. I'm onLinkedIn pretty much all the time. And I post almost daily and I [00:45:00] post, I try to post valuable lessons everyday as well. It's not just empty posts, but there's something to learn fromeverything that if you're not gonna, if.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:If I think that I'm going to post something and people aren't going to get anyvalue out of it, I won't post it. So I post most days. So connect with me onLinkedIn sign up for my newsletter. You can find my, you can sign up for thenewsletter actually on my website, which is harvey-lee[dot]com. And you'll geta free ebook that I wrote for the PMA by return for signing up.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:And then of course, if you really want to jump in, Buy the book. So BackstagePass, a Business Book That's Far From Conventional available. Well, It'savailable wherever they sell books, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Walmart. Youknow, everywhere, everywhere you'll find. It's not hard, it's not hard to find.And I'm truly blessed with the book because it's won five awards. It's reviewingan average of 4. 9 everywhere. First 60 reviews was like 4. 9. So themetacritic reviews have just been [00:46:00]phenomenal. And the feedback that I'm getting from people, cause people, it'sonly been out a month.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:People are just starting to, the first batch of readers just starting to gettowards the end of it. And I'm getting messages like you can read the reviews.You can see what people say for yourself. Yeah, the book Backstage Pass, it's50 percent rock and roll, 50 percent business, a hundred percent true.

Wrapping Up: Insights and Appreciation

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:Hey, oh my, that's absolutely Well, Harvey. Thank you again for joining us herefor this conversation.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:No, it's my pleasure. Thank you so

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:much

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:No, certainly you gave us a deep dive of product marketing, the skills andcompetencies to get more influence within it. Hey, either starting at a C a CPGcompany or getting the skill set of becoming a full stack marketer.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:There's more that you've dove into. Congrats on that book. We can't wait to seeit on a New York Times bestseller list here in the next when this When thisepisode comes out, but again for everything.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:Thank you.

harvey-lee_1_03-22-2024_171333:Pleasure. Yeah, guys. Listen, thank you so much. It's been my pleasure. Wecould have gone on and on, but really enjoyed. It's always great to talk to youguys.

gab_1_03-22-2024_131334:[00:47:00] Awesome.

zach---he-him-_1_03-22-2024_101333:This is another episode Around The Block, not Around The Block. That's my oldpodcast. Don't go to that podcast of We're Not Marketers signing out. See youguys.

Thank you for listening to We're Not Marketers. If you likewhat you heard, please subscribe, review our podcast, and share this episodewith other PMMs. Thanks again and see you soon.

‍