Carlota - FINAL - Landscape

[00:00:00]

We are podcasts for product markets and B2B SaaS who feelmisunderstood of what they do. From someone who truly gets what you do.Basically help you feel less like a misfit to being unignorable in your role.

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:Welcome to another episode of we're not marketers. I'm Gab. I'm the one doingthis intro today because Eric just got a baby and you just need to rebalancehimself. But yeah, I'm Gab Bujold, I'm SalesDeck intern. I just do sales deckuntil I die, and I'm going to pass the mic to my co host, Zach.

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:Hey, this is Zach Roberts here, the sales water boy, keeping all of our PMMshydrated for when they need to get that last minute sales requests, sales onepage done here. Let's pass it over here to the newly found baby daddy overhere, Eric.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:Hey yeah, if you're first time tuning in, my name's Eric Holland, the one andonly Frankenmarketer of the group now with the title Frankendaddy. We have twoFrench speaking folks on [00:01:00] the podtoday. So I'm gonna pass the mic back to Gab and he can introduce our wonderfulguest.

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:Thank you, Eric. So today we have the wonderful Carlota Guell. She's a SeniorProduct Marketing Manager at Decathlon, a outdoor store all across Europe.She's also, I think you just got your first year anniversary of Of productmarketing stories.

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:Is that right?

Track 1: In twomonths, one month, one month and a half. So nearly,

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:Awesome.

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:Okay.

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:And yeah, it's the number one product marketing podcast in France, in Frenchactually. And I was on our podcasts, I want to say six months ago, maybe morethan that. If you speak French, please go listen to it. So yeah, today we haveCarlota, very much for being with three misfits. If you want to introduceyourself with and doing a better job of what I just did, that would beappreciated.

Track 1: thank youvery much for the invitation. And I'm really happy to be here with you today.And yes my name I'm from Barcelona. That's why my name is [00:02:00] Carlota. I'm half Spanish, half French. Sonow I'm living in Lyon in France. And I'm a senior product marketing managerfor the Decathlon Outdoor application since one year.

Track 1: So DecathlonOutdoor is a application from Decathlon that allows French people for themoment to hike, go hiking or biking everywhere in France and to be guided. Sothey, so people don't get lost at the end of the trip. And so it's a B2C appand we will be able to talk about the differences between B2B, B2C later on.

Track 1: Because I'vealso worked in the B2B tech environment in the consumer goods also at the PMM.And yes, beside that, because I don't know what to do on my weekends. I alsohave a side project. I am the host of the product marketing stories podcast,which is the first French podcast dedicated to product marketing.

Track 1: Because Iwanted to make as you guys product marketing much more understandable,accessible to the tech ecosystem, French tech ecosystem.

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:That's incredible. [00:03:00] Oh,

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:world.

Track 1: Yeah.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:one thing before we get started for all our listeners she actually has a datewith her boyfriend coming up. And she's staying back to record and chat withus. So thank you very much for that. And Gab, we'll let you ask the mostimportant burning question that we like to ask all of our guests.

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:yes. At what restaurant are you going? No, I'm kidding. Are product marketersactually marketers? Why or why not?

Track 1: So yeah, Ijust read the book of from Seth Godin which this is marketing. And he wassaying a really interesting sentence about what is marketing. And he was sayingthat marketing is a generous act of helping someone solve a problem, theirproblem. And the story of marketing has to resonate.

Track 1: with thelisteners. So when I read this sentence, I said, we are marketers because weare the guys who are [00:04:00] behind thestory, who are really saying, okay, what is the story that we want to putbehind the product that we are selling to be relevant in the market? We are theone who are specifying what problems our products solve in a way that itresonates to the audience.

Track 1: And weexplain why people should buy our product instead of another. So I think thatmarketing is what allows the product, the projects to exist and to be known.And that's why we think, I think that we are marketers in that sense. But Idon't think that we are marketers in the sense we think today about doing alead generation, about doing the SEO campaigns, which are more levers.

Track 1: actionablethings to do marketing. And to finish on that I think that we do all the stuff,all the work that allows these people who are really good at doing SEO SEOprograms organic ads, et cetera, to be good at that, because we explain, we [00:05:00] tell what other story, how to put it inthe market, and then they do the magic.

Track 1: But we arebehind, we are doing the marketing that is hidden and that allows all thecompany and everyone, which can be sales customer success. Marketing people todo the stuff, right? So I think it's an important an interesting way to, tothink like this, because it gave another point of view about what is marketing.

Track 1: I think, andit gives a the marketing are more important and less bullshit. If I can saythat way to think about marketing. And yes, I think that it's really importantto have this in mind and to think about at the end, what do we do? We arestrategists. I think many people from the, from your pod say that already.

Track 1: We dopositioning stuff. We think about the audience et cetera, which is a lot ofstrategy, but then. We are also able to implement it, to execute it. And Ithink [00:06:00] this is a hidden power of thePMMs being able to be strategic, but also executing well.

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:love, I love the way you're

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:putting it. And there's a lot of nuance in your answer, but we understand itperfectly. It's season two now we got lots of answers. But I would say thatwhat I really liked about what you said and the way I'm understanding it iswe're enablers at heart, we do a lot of work in the backend, but our job is alot of. helping our counterpart in marketing, because again, we believe thatwe're not marketers. We're helping them be successful. We're helping themshine. And a lot of that is how are we able to balance out, as you said,strategy, tactics, and execution, basically. Okay.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:So you've been listening to our episodes and you said you listen and you askyourself that question. Do you always say yes? Or do you sometimes have alittle difference of opinion? Do you ever float on the no side of the fencewith us?

Track 1: Yes, becauseI think that, as I [00:07:00] said before, um,I'm not good at doing the operational thing that is marketing today running anSEO campaign. I've never done that before. I've never done I've written somepost and content, but I don't know how to leverage it. I know how to make itgood, how to how to make the people who really are good at that to do it well.

Track 1: But I'm notI would not say that I am a digital marketer. I'm more and by the way, in my,at my work today, I'm on the product side. My chief is the CPO and it's not theCMO. So I am working with the product team on developing the new features, whatwould be the roadmap, what we, what will be the product vision.

Track 1: And then Iempower the marketing team to put it in place and to define, okay, this will bethe product in a four month the new features Will be like this and this newfeature will help our [00:08:00] users to dothis kind of this kind of hike, or it will allow them to not be scared anymoreor whatever.

Track 1: And so thenthey can define, okay, what will be the best manner to put, to to prove it tothe market and what type of marketing action they will be able to implement.

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:Carlota, you mentioned earlier that you're now in the B2C space and for a lotof the conversations we've had have been a lot in B2B.

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:So you're the first

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:person to really speak from this lens here. And we're curious, from yourexperience back in B2B, now in B2C, do you feel like, are the unique nuancesthat a product marketer in B2C would see different from B2B?

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:Because I can't speak to that B2B side. I feel like you know what my answer isabout our product marketer markets from B2B, but I'm curious how that maydiffer from [00:09:00] your angle now as beingin the B2C space.

Track 1: Yeah. And Ithink that what I will say now will also make more sense about what I saidbefore about why are we marketers? Because when we are in the B2C space wedon't have sales that are selling the product. We don't have customer managers.Who are onboarding the new clients and we don't have also people that areusually customer success or sales who are trying to save the churns.

Track 1: So when weput something in the market, it's directly in the market. We don't have thisthese people who are talking to clients, to customers to prospects that willallow us to get this feedback loop really closely to talk to them and then goon the market. So that's why marketing is so important.

Track 1: And brand isalso very important because it's at the core of everything. When we write acopy, a landing page there is a new [00:10:00]feature. We don't have a prospect. We can show it to specific prospects andthen call them or clients and get calls with them. So we will have to do betatesting.

Track 1: We will haveto just test with AB testing on the messaging and different landing pages andsee how it works. So this is, I think the most difference about B2C and B2Cthat makes the shift on the mindset, because it implies that product andmarketing needs to need to work really closely together to ensure that when wecommunicate something on the market, It's true.

Track 1: And it'sthe, and we really show what the truth behind the product. Because we can'tsave something because it's too late. It's already there. So I think this issomething really important to have in mind. And also I think that in B2B, thereis a need to educate the market to [00:11:00]educate the prospects the audience that you want to target.

Track 1: While in B2Cwe need to make people dream to make them willing to test to up the product. Soit's much more in the emotional, in the feelings, while in B2B it's more on therational while now we are tending to, to be more also in the feeling and theemotional, because we are humans after all, within B2C and B2B.

Track 1: But the B2Cis really at the core, whether it's a physical product or a digital product atthe end. And now we are just doing at the tech level, what we have. All alreadydone when we work in the companies like in consumer goods, FMCG, Philipseveryone Coca Cola already have done that and it works.

Track 1: So that'swhat we are trying to do also now in the digital space.

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:So if I'm on the, going on the hike in the Alps and I'm using the decathlon appand I don't know where to go, you telling me, Carlota, that I can't just run upand be like, Hey, Carlota, here's a [00:12:00]one pager about this hike. So I can't give you a one pager. Is that what you'retelling me?

Track 1: For example,you can find on the web, you can find many places for us to go with theexplanation about why this waterfall is so beautiful when you, why you shouldgo there. What we, what you will find and you will also have in Google Maps,you can have the stars, the advices from other people.

Track 1: So the ideais really to, we have the mobile application and also the webpage that allowsto. With the web page, you get inspired. You can see the things where you wantto go. With the application, you can also get inspired. And then you can beguided. The D Day, you want to go to this waterfall. You go the turn by turnand you know how to go it, how to go there.

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:Ah, so it sounds like when you're saying like one thing you're saying for B2Clike Carlota, it's a lot of the things that we overlook in the, or maybe takefor granted in B2B. You're working with product and make sure that it's alreadybuilt into the onboarding experiences already built into the customer [00:13:00] experience.

Track 1: Exactly. Andwhat we try to do is really to be since we don't have sales. To speak with themto get in calls with them. We try to test much more and to really get like betatesters always here for us. So we know that we are, Like VIP users who reallylike the app, use them.

Track 1: And so we,for them, we can we, we get, we we allow them to get new features in advance sothey can test it, give us insights, and then we can do improvements on theproduct. And once we are ready and we see that all the bugs and everything isare are in control. Then it's available for all the users.

Track 1: So really inthis mindset, because otherwise, um, the risk is to go to the market releasenew features. But if something goes wrong, then it directly impacts us becausepeople will put bad reviews on the app stores et cetera. And then all thecredibility that we built, we can lose it really quickly.

Track 1: [00:14:00] So that's why we always need to listen tomarket review. the reviews and really be very reactive when we see thatsomething is going wrong.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:So that sounds like a dream state for me who lives in the B2B world, right?Having those advocates, those hand raisers who can come into a beta and youactually doing a beta test and actually being able to say, Hey, people want tobuy this and this is how much they want to pay for it and have all of thatinfluence.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:Why doesn't the B2B space have that? Like you seem to have. Over in B2C. I'mcurious if you've experienced any other differences yourself or have any spicyopinions as to why people in my situation are not living that dream world. Likeyou just played in front of everybody.

Track 1: I thinkthat's something that might impact it is different is that in B2B everythingseems like [00:15:00] more difficult, moreimpactful because we are in front of businesses and we see the people. At daywork and not where they are like hiking. But at the end, they are the sameperson during the day.

Track 1: They aregoing to the office and the weekend they will go hiking, but. We don't seethese people the same way. So when we are in the B2B, we have to be likeperfect. We have to be very professional. While I think that this same personwill appreciate to be to be talked like people who is going hiking.

Track 1: And At theend, maybe it will work even better. And since we have this image of thebusinessman and business women, and while at the end work, workers, people, Ithink that complexify the way we think. And then the way that we put everythingon the market the positioning, messaging, et cetera might seem not real.

Track 1: Not assimple because [00:16:00] we try To be in thisatmosphere, this professionalism that at the end is not so true.

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:I love the way you put it. And I think it's right on the money. It's B2B whereeverything needs to be perfect. And I think this is a big issue when brands tryto position themselves because they don't want to take a specific take or aspecific opinion or a specific point of view. And because of that, it's Hey,we're we're just a perfect company. And because of that, you cannot have adrastic point of view as product marketer or non marketer that not everyonewill agree with you, but ultimately having opinions, having, A stance onsomething is what makes us human. Basically, I really love that when you putthat and it's making me think about another question again on the drasticdifference between B2B and B2C

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:we had the on the pod and I can't say it because it's season 2,

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:um, So he doesn't send any [00:17:00] Germansafter us. It's Peep Laja

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:Laja

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:all right, We got it right here.

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:Sorry. It's a French accent on my end. Yeah, he said that. B2B is 10 yearsbehind B2C. Would you agree with that statement? What's your take on it? Andcan we dig a little deeper towards that?

Track 1: Yeah, Ithink I agree with with him. Because before being in the B2B, which was my lastbefore my last experience before the Catalan outdoor, I was five, I worked fiveyears in the consumer goods as a product marketer for I don't know if in theUnited States, but it was like the Rance groups, Tefal

Track 1: more in thekitchen, small electrical appliances. world. And when I move from thisuniverse, the consumer goods where marketing is a hero, at the end, I moved tothe B2B company which is a fintech company. [00:18:00]I was, I didn't understand anything of what was going on basically, becauseeverything, as I said, was really, about being, and it's normal beingprofessional saying this, the things, and it was more difficult to makedrastic, as you said, a gap to make radical changes and to say, okay, we arenot targeting this. Kind of audience, but this one and this, it was difficultand even in and so I thought why it's happening like this.

Track 1: And I thinkthat today the B2B for many years, B2B was about talking about business and nottalking about emotions. being irrational, talking about feelings, about whatare the real problems hidden behind lacking of time, for example, of, orwilling willing to gain more money.

Track 1: And I thinkthat now that the the market is going more is more and more tense. It's moredifficult to [00:19:00] to get money to getfundraisers. We need the B2B environment, need to find new ways of growthbecause lead gen cannot do anything everything. And all the thing about thebranding can be now a new way of growth, and I think that's why now the B2B.

Track 1: Space ismore about being like B2C and and trying to be more a near from the users, theclients being more emotional because it's a way it's working at the end, ifthey don't do it. They will lose a market share and they will and they won't beable to really build a brand that people want to to pay for and to stay in thelong term.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:I I, this is actually turning into one of my favorite conversations cause itfeels really near and dear to me. Cause I, it drives me nuts that, I'm a prettycasual dude. I got a backwards hat on and a crew neck, but like [00:20:00] B2B is no longer.

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:that's a symbol of casual

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:in the Eastern

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:part of the U. S. here, Carlota, backwards hat and a crew

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:Or just chilling, right? And I don't know it's wild to me that I think peoplestill believe it's a handshakes and suits and tie mentality. I truly believethere is like a, that, that's their deep rooted fear is that they still believeyou got to bring a briefcase into work when you're doing a B2B thing, whereas,like you said, you're talking to hikers.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:Like hikers aren't thinking about what their job is, unless their job is tohike, of course, right? And about a year ago, I came across the buying, theemotional buying pyramids. Are you familiar with that by chance?

Track 1: Yeah. Allthe emotional the different

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:yeah.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:And

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:what blew my mind is that there's one for B2C and one for B2B. And I was

Track 1: Really?yeah.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:And I

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:was like, why? Cause like [00:21:00] you said,a hiker is also that CEO, right? And so at the end of the day, I think, The B2Bbuying pyramid maybe not need to be used in the B2C space. But what I thinkpeople aren't doing is they're not using the B2C pyramid. in conjunction withthe emotions for the B2B side, because you said, very early on, we aren'tselling to a business.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:We're talking to a person. And, um, I don't know if you haven't checked out theB2B pyramid. I'd love for you to look at that, get back to me offline sometimeand give me your thoughts. But it was like really enlightening how you havethis whole separate emotional pyramid for the business side versus. Theconsumer side, so to speak.

Track 1: didn't knowthat there was this difference. So yeah, I will have a look.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:Yeah. I'm obsessed with it. I'm trying to still figure out my theory behind itall and how you blend them together and to create that perfect buying [00:22:00] experience. But yeah, I'd love to hearyour thoughts.

Track 1: Yeah. Ithink that. In any, something that might also be important to, to have in mindis that, In B2C when we buy a product, if it's not a premium one, reallyexpensive, or when you just have to download an application, it's not reallyrisky of us, if I can say that. I won't lose so much money.

Track 1: If I want, Ican just erase it from my phone. And that's all. So it's also easier, I think,when we are in the B2C to just be more as you said normal, simple, becauseeverything is more simple. While when you are in the B2B or the sales cycle, Ithink you know that can be very long. It can be very difficult to get with theright people to, to use the right to use the right demos.

Track 1: the rightthe right sentences that will make people actually think about [00:23:00] that. And I think that also makeseverything more complex because in B2B, we also are in an environment thatAfter all is more complex than when you just have to download one app and ifyou want you can erase it just after if you don't like it,

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:Yeah. It's, I think it's a lot harder to read an entire two page docu sign thanto not read one of those check Mark user license

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:agreement. Things that makes a lot of sense. I appreciate that.

Track 1: Not yet.Dark

Track 1: On that.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:I love it.

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:Carlota question for you, like we mentioned earlier, you've got productmarketing stories. It's the number one PMM podcast in France. And the reasonwhy I wanted to call this out for a second is that here in the U. S. There aremany titles within product marketing. One common one we see a lot is globalproduct marketing manager.

Track 1: Okay.

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:Thank you, that's really helpful to [00:24:00]hear.

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:So you just said that at least in Europe a lot of those PMMs report to theproduct department. Is it fair to say that because they are under product PMMsin Europe are not marketers? We got it,

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:boys.

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:Got em!

Track 1: You got it.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:Alright we like to have a little fun with our favorite guests, so you're cominginto that lineup. We play a little game called Either Or, where we'll put youinto a phone booth, and you are given an option between one of those twothings, and you have to pick one, alright?

Track 1: Okay,

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:How's that sound?

Track 1: let's go.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:Okay. So

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:given,

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:given that you're born in Spain, you're living in France, I can tell it soundslike you speak three languages. Is that correct?

Track 1: Yes evenfour, if you talk about the Catalan

Track 1: inCatalonia,

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:All right. So we've [00:25:00] got four then.All right. So I'm going to keep it more native to you and we'll start withflamenco or ballet.

Track 1: ballet,

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:All right. Bowl fighting or tour de France.

Track 1: Tour deFrance.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:Uh, if you, do you like art at all?

Track 1: Do I likewhat? Yes, I like it.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:Picasso or Monet?

Track 1: That's adifficult one. I will say Picasso.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:Oh, okay. Sangria or Champagne?

Track 1: Oh. Ah, itdepends on the moment.

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:Good luck

Track 1: I

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:it depends on the option. It's not an option in the phone

Track 1: It's not

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:on a

Track 1: We saychampagne. I will say champagne

Track 1: because

Track 1: I'm inFrance, so I have to say champagne.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:fair. Running of the Bulls or the Cannes Film Festival?

Track 1: Filmfestival. I would [00:26:00] say

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:Um, let's go with Class 2. Costa Brava or French Riviera?

Track 1: Costa Brava,

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:And Alright, since you're in the location, Alps or the Pyrenees.

Track 1: Alps, themountains are Alright.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:Then that's, then that, we'll let you out of the phone booth now, and that endsthe lightning round. So great job,

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:that was cool

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:to unpack a little bit more about you and what you're doing outside of work.

Track 1: Thank you.

gab_1_02-09-2024_130602:So yeah, thank you very much for being with us. Where can people find you? Whencan people hear more about you? When can people? Connect with you or listen toproduct marketing stories. Tell us everything about you.

Track 1: Yeah.Connect me people can connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm quite active. I write [00:27:00] some posts every week. And productmarketing stories, there will be a link directly on my profile. So easy to getsorry, all the episodes are in French. So if you are French, you can listen tothem.

Track 1: Otherwisethere are other really great podcasts for English speakers. And yes, I thinkLinkedIn is the best way to reach

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:One got another reason to learn

zach-_1_02-09-2024_100603:French now, to listen to that podcast.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:I took four years, I took four years of it in high school. So I'm four yearsin. Let's sharpen that pencil up again. And last question. Do you have anyspecial projects that you're either coming out with or you're, or you mightwant to let listeners know about

Track 1: um, not sobig projects. I will continue with my podcast. Many episodes are coming, newepisodes new collaborations, all as well. So I think it'll be a great year forthe PO this year.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:awesome.

Track 1: Thank you.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:We'll be

Track 1: Thank youvery much.

Track 1: Yes.

eric_1_02-09-2024_130603:So how's that [00:28:00] sound guys? Is thatwrap it up for another episode of we're not marketers.

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