Go-to-market (or GTM for the experts) became a giant buzzword over the years, but when you start asking questions about it, the definition from peers lack substance. The issue with that, is the fact that almost all product marketing roles have GTM ownership. Madison Leonard is a GTM consultant for startups and she’s showing us how PMM can influence GTM without being left out. We talk about:
Get ready for some clarity around the biggest buzzword of product marketing, a lot of bad jokes from the three misfits, and a lots of unique insights from the GTM queen!
How PMMs can influence GTM in their startup, without beingleft out
[00:00:00]
This isn't a podcast on labeling product marketing. This is apodcast for product marketing managers who feel misunderstood internally.Because building slide decks and writing copy is not all that we do. So aretoday's product marketers actually marketers?
Track 1: Alright,welcome to our next episode of We're Not Marketers. You've got the one and onlyEric Holland here, the Frankenmarketer of the group. I'll pass
Track 1: it over toGab for an introduction.
gab_1_12-15-2023_115513:I just do sales deck until I die.
zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Yo, this is Zach Roberts, right here, sales Water boy .
Track 1: I, I'm readyto give the introduction that all of our listeners actually are gonna come tothis episode for, and that is the wonderful Madison Leonard. One of my favoriteproduct marketing and GTM voices. I think for probably about 18 months now.
Track 1: But otherthan that, I want to give you the full floor and give any of our listeners alittle bit more flavor [00:01:00] about you andwhat you're currently working on.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Yeah, happy to. So I, I kind of like togive my full background and I promise I'll make this as short as I possibly canbecause I think my journey to product marketing is very, interesting. Like Ikind of fell into it. It was not something that I like targeted from the beginning,but I actually started in product and I worked on Dreamworks Animation and Iworked on, they had like this direct consumer mobile application that they wereworking on. And so I did like user research. I was very product focused, veryuser focused, and I loved it, but I also saw what marketing was doing, and I, Ihadn't really been exposed to marketing before that. And by the way, this isbefore product marketing was even. A thing, in general. And so I was looking atwhat they were doing and I was like, oh, this is so cool. I'm gonna go figureout how to be in marketing. And so I went and I tried just a bunch ofdifferent marketing things from like events and PR and content and social andpaid, like every type of marketing and. I got really jealous 'cause I saw allof my friends kind of like, [00:02:00] they'relike, I'm a social media marketer, or I'm doing content, or they had veryspecific specialties and I didn't feel that way about any of them. And so Ijust was like, I guess I'm a generalist marketer.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:And then around, I don't know, like the 2017 era of things like productmarketing started to get hype and wind and especially in like more of the B2Bspace, which before it was very much more in the direct consumer space, whichis my background and where I come from. Andso when I started to read up on product marketing, I went, oh my gosh, this iseverything I'm doing already. Like I'm tying in all of marketing together anddoing GTM strategy and launchingthings and creating a story and all of the things that I, that I really, reallylove. And so then I finally felt like I had found something that really spoketo what I was already doing and passionate about. And then when I transitionedinto the B2B space, I've worked with A lot of different companies I've workedwith you know, ClickUp, I spent a good amount of time at Vanta as well, likesome other startups that I advise for too.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:And during that process, [00:03:00] likeas I was kind of coming to an end last year and deciding like what new thingwas next on my radar um, I started toget a lot of inbound requests on LinkedIn and kind of just being like, Hey, welove the work that you've done so far.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Can you help our, you know, founding marketing team or speak directly to theCEO? And so. from those inbound requests, I kind of just turned it into an adhoc business until I figured out kind of what else I wanted to do. And so I'vebeen doing advising consulting for the last year. Now I kind of just like fellinto it. But I'm starting to get a little bit more clear on sort of like what Ilike and what I don't like about it. And I. One of the things that I'm reallytrying to speak to today, which I'm excited to chat with you guys about andthat I'm so passionate on, is just GTM strategy as a whole.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Because I feel like oftentimes, especially over the last two years it's reallybeen focused on individual specialties um, because it's been growth at allcosts and now it's about revenue efficiency. And so that's really my bread andbutter is like, how can we create this like holistic [00:04:00]GTM strategy that touches across product marketing and sales and customersuccess and support and all of the areas of the business to fuel the best go-tomarket possible so that you win. And the thingthat I always tell people too is like, you know. The old revenue playbook oflike cold outreach and, and sales heavy is kind of in the dying process rightnow. And marketing is starting to really be front and center and shine the waythat buyers wanna buy today. So I think marketing is actually going to be oneof the most important departments going into 2024 as we talk about go-to-marketstrategy.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:And so anyway, I'm happy to dive into that more, but that, that's kind of abrief background on me and kind of what I focus on today.
zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_085514:If you heard the show, or before. Madison Gab's gonna fire a question at you.With, with all of you shared here so far.
gab_1_12-15-2023_115513:Yeah. But prior to that you said something that I just want to kind of go backon and all of your friends who are doing social media [00:05:00]marketing and content marketing, I. And you kind of saw yourself as ageneralist, is it fair to say that you felt like a misfit at the, at that time?
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Oh, for sure. Yeah. I was so jealous. I was, everybody was off and they felt soconfident about like the specialty that they had picked and I was over herelike You know, general, I don't know all of it. Like, I like how they all playtogether and so I very much felt like I was, I don't know, missing something orthat someone, you know, I wasn't drinking the right Kool-Aid or something.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:because everybody was so, so passionate about what they were doing. So ahundred percent yes to your question,
gab_1_12-15-2023_115513:Amazing. Cool. Because we feel like misfits as well. So that's why we startedthis podcast. Madison, are product marketer, actually marketer, why or why not?
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Okay. So I think I'm extremely biased in this coming from my background, but Ican just tell you.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Coming from general marketingand transitioning into product marketing, I [00:06:00]think made me a very strongproduct marketer when I was focused on that. And the reason being isbecause in my opinion, I don't think that you can put together a go-to-marketstrategy that actually works if you don't have a fundamental understanding ofall of the components and how they all work together. And so a big, this is oneof the things that really set me apart from a lot of other product marketersthat I talk with is like. productmarketing has been thought of in the B2B space as like just sales enablement.And don't get me wrong, like that's a very important part, like that it canhave really, really strong impacts on the sales cycle, pipeline velocity, a lotof things, but. When you lose sight of like other aspects of marketing, whenyou lose sight of branding and demand gen, when you lose sight of social, whenyou lose sight of community, when you lose sight of things on the product end,like how you're gonna get to, you know, activation for a user, what you'redefining as retention and being really tied to the strong business metrics [00:07:00] likeNRR and various things.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Hero Pipeline is a great onethat I love as well. I. You start to pigeonhole yourself into, I guess, I mean,it goes back to the metrics. You wanna tie yourself to what the company isdoing. And I think if you just do sales enablement, it can be very, very hardto do that. It's not impossible, but it's very, very hard. And socreating that comprehensive go-to-market strategy that ties into those reallyimportant business metrics, I think should be a fundamental part. Of productmarketing. And so that's why I think my general background really aids me indoing that versus other product marketers that I've talked to who don't havethat experience working with product or working with other marketingcounterparts and driving those results can sometimes feel a little lost in thesauce.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:And a lot of their go-to go-to-market strategies focus only on sales anddoesn't encompass product or marketing either.
zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Madison, I'm glad you brought that up.
zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_085514:One follow up to what you shared here earlier is like [00:08:00]Like having that marketing experience had a conversation with a B2B salesleader who's heading up a sales development team. One challenge he finds withworking with marketing is that he felt that with marketing's primarily focusedon creating leads, while sales has to figure out how to turn those leads intorevenue. And he feels that because of this disconnect on those in. Thosedepartment focuses, it leaves a gap for sellers to really capture the revenuethat's relevant to the business. An example being marketing creates, Hey, wecreated several webinar leads. We created our goal. We hit our goal. The salesleaders like, well, these leads are shit
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Yeah.
zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_085514:team's not closing. So with that perspective in mind, like what are the rightmetrics that a product marketer should focus on to ensure that they are closingthe gap between marketing and sales activities?
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:That's a really good question, and I think it's It's a question that's gonnacome up even more in 2024 because again, with the revenue efficiency model, [00:09:00] like you can't just be like, I got all myleads, I'm done. And it really, to be honest with you, it comes back to likehow leaders are incentivizing companies.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Like I, I wish it wasn't the case, but that's really how it is because it, ifyou have a marketing leader that you brought on and a sales leader that youbrought on. And they're meant to, you know, let's say for a marketing leader,like they have to have X amount of leads each quarter or each year, and thenthey get their bonus package or whatever.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:It's, they have zero incentive.They're trying to hit their bonus package, they're trying to pay theirmortgage. Like that's, that's what is happening at the end of the day. So theyhave zero incentive to actually provide good high quality leads. That's justthe end of the day. And not only that, but like a lot of. leads today that aregenerated from paid sources, typically? Typically, not all the time, buttypically Are very poor quality because usually they're very early in theirevaluation process. And so it just is a waste of time, in my opinion,for the sales cycle. [00:10:00] And so what Ithink is gonna need to be the main focus for everyone, and this is wheremarketing comes back in for like really leading the charge on GTM. It's likemarketing has to create. A engine in which the majority of the sales buyingprocess actually happens in marketing and is self-serve. And it doesn't meanyou have to have a self-serve product necessarily, although I do definitelyrecommend that just for competitiveness. Defensiveness in the future. Etcetera, et cetera. But like there's so much you can do self-serve on amarketing side to make sure that when you're generating that lead, like let'ssay you have a LinkedIn ad and you're generating that lead, if they're unawareof the problem, unaware of other solutions, like totally just. Early, early,early in the buying cycle. It's a waste of time for everyone, and those are theleads that waste time, that fall off around stage two, stage three, whatever itis. So I think a major part is figuring out how marketing can handhold thatbuyer so that those leads are converted into like. Almost like [00:11:00] downselling in a way, like downsell intocommunity programs, downsell into freebies, downsell, like make this personreally love you as a brand, really love your product, and really feel stronglyabout the pain and the solution. And then once all those things are completed.Then hand it over to sales, and then you're gonna see a massive, massive,massive increase in not only just sales confidence and happiness, becauseyou're bringing them people who actually want to buy. But also you're gonna seethat in terms of pipeline velocity, you're gonna see that in terms of just Thegeneration of leads actually resulting in ARR versus kind of falling off thewagon and not having a very strong win-loss ratio. So there are a lot ofcomponents there, but, but yeah, that, that's why I'm so passionate about kindof marketing, taking, taking a little bit more ownership there.
Track 1: I can tellyou one thing. I've never met a sales rep who said, give me a lesser qualitylead, please. Right. come on.
Track 1: I use thisanalogy all the time. [00:12:00] Like I'drather be given a 70 mile an hour, you know, soft, slow pitch softball than a99 mile hour fastball any day of the week. So, um, that really, that reallystrikes me.
Track 1: And, andearlier, you know, I think you, you touched on, you view product marketing iskind of the, you know, point person here when you're developing and thenactually getting a go-to-market strategy to the finish line.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Mm-Hmm.
Track 1: Would youmind helping us understand more of how you view that? And you used an analogyearlier, but what does kind of that perfect scenario look like when things areall working?
Track 1: And what aresome of the outcomes that you see when things are, are put in motion the rightway?
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Yeah, I love this question. So I view product marketing when it's operating atits Maximum capacity and when it'sreally performing well as being the conductor of an orchestra. And what'sreally fascinating is like if you go on YouTube, go Google, like, [00:13:00] youknow, an orchestra that doesn't have a conductor practicing without theconductor, whatever it is. They, I mean, don't get me wrong, like they're good,like these are professional musicians, right? So like each person, like firstchair of violin and drums and all of these different things, they are really,really, really good at their specific instrument, and that's why they are onthis team. And the conductor is the person who's tying it all togetherand making sure that everybody's working really efficiently and it's developingthis like really, really beautiful moving piece of music. And so it's, that'show I like to think about product marketing when it's operating really well, isbeing the conductor of that orchestra. And in order to be the conductor of theorchestra, you have to have a robust understanding of all of the differentspecialties of how Piano works well with violin, works well with cello, with,you know, and you can make those analogies with business.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:So product marketers should know how to make demand gen work, how to increase,you know, pipeline velocity on the sales side, how to increase sales confidenceand [00:14:00] with enablement trading, how toget to activation and retention inside the product. Like you should know all ofthese things in order to make them all work together really efficiently. And soI. Just love thinking about product marketing, be at being at the center foldand being that conductor within a business to make sure that it can deliver themost value across all the different departments and specialties.
Track 1: Let me askyou another question about that too. So when you say no, how much of that doyou feel like is theoretical and how much is getting your hands dirty andactually doing the thing? Right.
Track 1: I.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Yeah, it's, so that's definitely the hardest part just because I think thatmost product marketers don't have that, that hands-on experience. So I think asmuch as you can get the hands-on experience, I do recommend doing that. And Ithink that the biggest, the biggest thing that I would say is just like makingsure that the [00:15:00] hands-on experienceyou have actually delivers. Result. Right. So as an example, someone could havebeen a social media manager right before going into PMM, but if what they weredoing in social media was just making sure that there was a, a daily cadence ofinteraction, and I would say all the table stakes things of like being a socialmedia manager. It doesn't necessarily mean that the content that they wereproducing on that actually was driving results to make the buyer or thechampion feel more confident in their decision, feel like they were being heardand understood by the brand. And, and delivering that value doesn't always meanthat that's hitting the mark.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:So I do wanna distinguish between like. Just doing the work table stakes oncertain things versus actually getting your hands dirty and having directbusiness impact with the things that you're doing. So that doesn't mean that aPMM needs to go and like quit their job and become a demand gen person beforethey can go back into a PMM. It [00:16:00] justmeans that like if you have a demand gen person you're working with, or even ifyou don't like, I mean this is why LinkedIn, the power of LinkedIn is sospecial and I love it so much. Like go DM someone and or comment on their postsand like learn from them. There's so many people who are putting out really,really, really great content today. And so go learn what that looks like sothat when you're having a conversation with a demand gen leader and maybethey're kind of doing the old like 2012 waterfall methodology for demand, youcan kind of slide in and show them some, some proof points of people that you followand be like, Hey. I see that these people are having like higher, you know,win-loss ratios. They're having like more success with their pipeline. They'reha, you know, X, Y, Z and they're doing this thing differently. What do youthink about implementing this together? Because you have to get that buy-inas a PMM because you're not doing everything yourself usually.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:So, it's a tricky case. I would say, you know, do do what you can to acquireall of the knowledge across all the different areas. It doesn't necessarilymean [00:17:00] that you have to go in thatrole for a specific time. It just means that you have to be able to speak thelanguage and feel comfortable and confident talking to whoever that specialistis, that you know what you're doing, you're, and you're not just recommendingsome ad hoc, random ideas, for the, for the hell of it.
zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_085514:That's, that's really helpful to share there, Madison. And that's a similarcomment that Tamara shared on our, our prior conversation of. Hey, like whenyou are trying to showcase a strategy, it's always helpful to bring those proofpoints. But there's something you said earlier where like you said, productmarketers are like the conductors of the Many product marketers feel morelike the stage hands when it comes to leading GTM. And so our question for youis that what do you say to those product marketers on how to get thatleadership buy-in when you are coming in with that strategy, when you are doingall this upfront work to influence that GTM?
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:So [00:18:00] thisis a lesson that I had to learn the hard way that I, if. Like a PMM islistening to this like, please do not make my same mistakes.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:There is so much value inbuilding trust, even when it's doing things that you don't necessarily aredriving impact right away. And for a role like PMM that is so influential, thattrust is really what will benefit you in the long run. And so if that meansdoing things that are outside the scope of what you were brought on for to helpout your partner in sales or in product, do it. Like figure out a way to buildthat trust with that counterpart because it's actually not about the idea.It could be the best idea ever.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:It could be data backed, it could be all of these really great things. But ifyou don't have that trust, that inherent like communication and trust withwhoever the partner is that you wanna influence it's not gonna be accepted. Andespecially it's not gonna be accepted because most people do not like changingwhat they're [00:19:00] doing if they've been ademand gen leader for 15 years and you come in and you say everything you'redoing is wrong, Like that's a good way to be shown the door like that is notgoing to work. So I think that you know, as much as it is about getting data,bringing proof points, like doing all of the things, yes, but. When you'rebringing something that's going to impact huge amounts of change in theorganization or how your counterparts work with you, then it has to be donevery, very delicately.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:And it's almost like I hate touse this analogy, but almost like inception in a way where it's kinda like youplant the seed and like then months later you kind of like reap the rewards.It's kind of what needs to be done with something so. Either controversial orhard to change or whatever it is because you, you won't be able to do it rightaway.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:So if you are waiting the rightmoment to like step up. And you're assuming that like that one right moment andyou've collected all of this data and you like feel really [00:20:00] confidentabout bringing this to someone, like nine times outta 10, it's gonna fail. Sojust start now. Start planting the seeds, start sending podcast episodes toyour boss, to the demand gen person, to the sales person, to the productperson, whatever it is. Plant the seed, give 'em lots of freebies, and thenhelp them to really see the value in that rather than like strong-arming andforcing their hand towards making that kind of a change.
zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_085514:She said it. Send that episode to your leaders.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Yeah.
Track 1: Oh man. I'mso guilty of that too. Like I, the email thing, every, I think at least twooutta the three people here, if not all three, know that I despise cold emails.Right. And like, to me it's such, it's such a no-brainer to like, not . Putyour eggs in too many eggs in that basket. And I swear, every time I've run upto that conversation, , I'm like, yeah, common sense.[00:21:00]
Track 1: But like yousaid, you gotta plant that seed and just keep giving the freebies instead ofthe expectation of like, this is common knowledge. This should make sense. Youknow, you've, you've been enlightened. Go, go forward.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:and it's especially like, you know, I think some things are rapidly changing.So like, as an example, if you talk to a, a social media manager, even ifthey've been a social media manager for 10 years, social media changes so muchthat I think that you can break through to them. They're, they're very used tochange versus talking to someone who's been a sales leader or a demand genleader for 10 plus. Years and you say, Hey, this methodology that you've been doingfor the past 10 years is now wrong. That's a much harder sell because they'renot used to that. It's, it's been this like revenue GTM playbook that like isdependable and reliable and it has demand gen, it has cold outbound and it hasall of these things, and now you're like rocking their world.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:You're rocking everything they know about doing good marketing, doing goodsales, like it's a, it's a [00:22:00] majormindset. Mindset shift that they have to make. So those are the ones that youreally need to like, do a lot of time nurturing that relationship before and,and planting those little seeds versus Talking to someone in, you know, productor social media manager, like a lot of that stuff changes pretty rapidly,especially in the world of PLG, right? Like you have to constantly be iteratingand shifting how you're doing it. So they, they may be a little bit moreopen-minded to doing a shift radically or trying something rather than some ofthe, some of the other organizations that have Had a lot of success. It's not,you know, it's not for, for a wrong reason. They've had a lot of success doingthe methodologies that they've been doing, and it's just things are, things arechanging.
gab_1_12-15-2023_115513:That's awesome. I have I would just like to switch gear a little bit
gab_1_12-15-2023_115513:because earlier you said that you're, you were coming from product, correct.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Yeah. Or very early on in my career, I, I did mostly product stuff and, and Istill consider myself to be very product focused, very product heavy, for [00:23:00] sure.
gab_1_12-15-2023_115513:Cool. You probably saw the meme of are you guys friend and it's a PMM and a PMand the PMM is saying yes. The PM is saying no.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:yes.
gab_1_12-15-2023_115513:yeah, the classic one this is kind of bringing me to like, if product marketerare not marketer, are not reporting to VP of marketing, for example. How areyou seeing them reporting outside of the marketing department and how are youseeing them having like basically a good, cohesive approach with product?
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Yes, I love this question. I think there needs to be more like growth focusedand product focused PMMs out there in the world. I came from direct toconsumer, and so that was inherently built into me because in direct toconsumer, like if you, if you aren't delivering value, if you aren'tcommunicating that value, I.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:You literally don't have a business like at all. And you know that's not thecase in in enterprise buying a lot of the time. Like you can, if you have areally good sales team, like you can sell a really bad [00:24:00]product and get that enterprise onboarded and like you have a lot of money thatcomes from that, that does not exist when you don't have a sales team doingthat for you with direct to consumer, like you have to convince that buyer.Who's also the consumer, right? That this is really awesome. You have to guidethem through every process to make sure they're activated. You have to ensurethat they're retained. You have to nurture it, like constantly add value,constantly innovate. So I came from that world, so it was just inherently builtinto me that like, well, of course, everything we're doing. Marketing andproduct wise is to make sure that the user's really happy all of the time.That's the main goal. And so when I came into B2B, I was like really shaken upby like how different that it was. And I'm glad that that's changing now. LikePLG is definitely starting to get more name more hype and that's great. But I think that, you know, if you wannastand out as a PMM, like go figure out how to impact bottom-line things on theproduct side because not a lot of PMMs know how to do that. So that's not only getting [00:25:00] awareness and getting people, you know,signups and leads into the product itself, but nurturing them.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Like, like, do product onboarding. Make sure that you get them to activation.Make sure that you have nurture components both in the app and outside of theapp to nurture that activated user and move them into that. More habitualforming, you know, loop. And then also on top of that work with whether it's aPM or a growth pm, work with that person on installing actual growth loops andnetwork effects into the product as well. So that with every one user, thatmarketing acquires via paid also acquires another user in the product bycollaborating and sharing and whatever it may be. So. A hundred percent. Ithink that those are very useful skills for any company to have, but especiallyin today's day and age. To have a PMM who can actually speak that language andmake changes on that end is going to be very substantial, not only for thebusiness, but also for the PMM and just [00:26:00]standing out amongst the sea of PMMs today.
Track 1: And onething I've, for sake of another corny analogy. One thing I've picked up fromwatching you that sounded creepy, let's say, watching your
Track 1: LinkedIn,
zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_085514:from afar. Well, okay, that sounds worse.
Track 1: watching you
zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_085514:from
Track 1: the street.
zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_085514:watching your journey
zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_085514:on LinkedIn.
Track 1: Idefinitely, like, you've been a really big catalyst for me kind of adopting anew philosophy about . You can cut any analogy you want, but I use like anApple analogy where it's like you could send someone an email and send 'em apicture of this orchard that you have, or like you could find ways to deliverthat orchard to them.
Track 1: And I thinkthere's so many people doing the former and the more PMMs who understand thatladder approach and can even get them a taste of the apple, right? PLG, right.Give them an actual experience before you ever. [00:27:00]Ask for anything out of their wallet. Those are gonna be the successfulorganizations and obviously the the PMs who are driving that are gonna be themost successful, I think over the next few.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Yeah, for sure.
zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_085514:oh no, I was, I was gonna, I was gonna say is that it sounds like this upfrontvalue piece, Madison, you were sharing is very similar to what Anthony Pierrishared a few weeks back. So, one follow-up question. You mentioned you wereshocked when you first came into B2B. I'm curious, what was it that shocked youthe most from working in B2B from prior experience at B2C?
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:I think it was just that It was a few things. I mean, one, the, the major onethat stood out was the product side of things. So, there was. So much In fact,I remember this being part of like, the messaging that we put together in, inproduct marketing was like, how other platforms aren't adopted? Like that wasone of the things that [00:28:00] we talkedabout a lot in, in the sales cycle was like, other products aren't adopted.Like we have a very high adopt, like internal adoption rate for your employeesto use this product because people actually enjoy using it. Like that was a big. Selling point. When I kind of went into the PLG B2B side of things becausethe norm, if you go and talk to a lot of people who have used software in thepast, the norm is you have some buyer. Goes and buys this software because thesalesperson took them to some concert. Okay. And then really, this is, this isactually what would happen. Some, some salesperson wooed, some person made themfeel really important. And they were so high up at this company and they weremaking decisions about software that they weren't even gonna touch or use.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:And then they go and they buy it. They, they talk about how awesome it is. Theypush it off to go have it be enabled and rolled out throughout their teams andtheir teams were like, this is crap. Like, why did you buy this? This doesn'tdo anything. And then they're forced to use it and it [00:29:00]creates a lot of tension in the organization.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Productivity is wasted, like all of these negative things come from it. No onelikes the software, no one wants to use it, and they're forced to use it. Nowwhat's gonna happen is. No one's going to share word of mouth about thisproduct. In fact, the word of mouth that's gonna happen is, this product iscrap, don't use it.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Or if they go into another company that uses it, they go, oh my God, this thisproduct again. And so that's what's so revolutionary about PLG B2B. Is like,don't get me wrong, you still have a sales cycle. You still sell to enterpriselike PLG. Doesn't mean that you just sell to the end-user, but it ensures thatpeople can get into the product themselves, find value, test it out, do all thethings that need to be done so that when they go and those buyers are makingthe decision for end-users and end-users can actually go, yeah, this product isawesome. We're finding a lot of value from it, and that not only speeds up thepipeline. You know, before making that decision, but after the purchasedecision, it also makes sure is that everybody's adopting the platforminternally [00:30:00] and when you haveadoption and you have happy customers, the renewal just is on repeat.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:You know, you don't have to throw all your CSMs in the fourth quarter. Beinglike, Hey, you haven't been on the product for six months, but it's reallygreat and here's all the value that's here. And then they go cold and they goaway for like the rest of the time. So it just is revolutionary and shiftinghow we're thinking about like product adoption internally, when, when you are acompany buying a software, like are people happy?
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Are people using it? And is it delivering value to your company? And PLG is thejust the facilitator in making that happen.
zach---he-him-_1_12-15-2023_085514:So less selling at Beyonce concerts and more speaking to the direct value thata person can get from a product.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Exactly.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Yes. And that's especially true even today. I, I'm not sure if you've had otherguests talk about this, but it's a, it's a bigproblem on, like most purchase decisions today, especially 2023. 2024 is gonnabe a big problem is not because you're losing to a competitor. Like, it's justnot, it's because people are [00:31:00] scared to make decisions.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Because if you're a person inside of an organization and everybody's scrambled.For everything across the board right now, and you go in and you make apurchase decision. You are like, everything is on the line, right? No one wantsto be laid off today. No one, like everyone's scared of it. So if you go andmake a bad purchase decision, if you go and spend 50K or more on a software andit's bad, it doesn't yield any results, people hate it, whatever.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Like people are gonna look to you and be like, dude. What did you do? Like thiswas a lot of wasted money. Like now we're shaking in our competence againstyou. So a lot of people are feeling that and it's ending in no decision. Andit's not because the problem isn't there, it's because. We haven't done a great job of like making sure thatthey're, you know, 90% of the way bought before going into the sales cycle.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:And we're putting too much pressure, in my opinion, on the salesperson to likepaint this ridiculously awesome narrative of like, this, this one solution'sgonna be [00:32:00] Everything to you. You'regonna have the best business ever after this. And here's all the clients andthe ROI and all of these things. But at the end of the day, it's, it's notenough.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Like there actually needs to be that inherent value experience in order forsomeone to go over the finish line. And so the companies that are going to beprioritizing that are the ones that are gonna have those really, really narrowwindows of no decision versus the companies who aren't like one of the I, Iguess symptoms would be you have deals, the majority of your close loss dealsending in no decision because you haven't done a great job of communicating tothat buyer and instilling trust that this is the right product for them.
Track 1: So Madison,we wanna make sure that everybody in this entire world knows exactly where tofind you other than this podcast. So could you help some of our listenersunderstand where they could best reach you at?
Track 1: Whetherthat's for advice, maybe some consulting work, or even just to connect andlearn, learn more about what you're [00:33:00]doing.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:My LinkedIn is the best place. It has everything All of the above of what youjust mentioned, . You can send me a cold DM, I will respond to it. You can booka call with me. That's also something I'm interested in doing with people tohelp them feel more confident in their roles and deliver value. I also workdirectly with companies. And by the way, like I post a ton of free things onLinkedIn. Like I really believe in the power of like ungating knowledge. Soeven if it's just like You know, quick and easy win of like hitting the followbutton on LinkedIn and just consuming that free content. Like I just wanna helpother people feel more confident in their roles and feel more confident increating that, that efficiency in their go-to market. So that would beabsolutely the number one place that people can find me
Track 1: The threeC's with Madison. We got
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:the three Cs
Track 1: coaching,and chill vibes. Love it well, hey Madison, I I just wanna give a heartfeltthank you from all three of us here.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:Oh, I loved it. I love talk, talking about all [00:34:00]this stuff. It's a, it's a passion of mine. Like truly, you know, peoplesometimes are like, wait, you, you're really excited about this? Like, I'll beon a Saturday night, like looking up. Various templates or very, you know,other things in this industry. 'cause I love it so much.
madison-leonard---she-hers-_1_12-15-2023_085514:So, thank you for, for allowing me the opportunity to like, talk about what I'mso passionate about. And I just, I love what you guys are doing, so keep doingit.
Thank you for listening to We're Not Marketers. If you likewhat you heard, please subscribe, review our podcast, enjoy this episode withother PMMs. Thanks again and see you soon.