Standing tall in a "layoff-heavy" PMM job market w/Yi Lin Pei

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Welcome to the Misfit Podcast: Unveiling Product Marketing Mysteries

We are podcasts for product markets and B2B SaaS who feelmisunderstood of what they do. From someone who truly gets what you do.Basically help you feel less like a misfit to being unignorable in your role.

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Introducing Yi Lin Pei: From Visual Artist to Product Marketing Pro

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:Today, we're going to introduce Yi Lin Pei. She is a product marketing pro,not only has she elevated her career in organizations, such as Teachable andBrightflag, she is a product marketer, career coach, and has specialized as ahelping underrepresented groups. Breaking in, not only into tech into productmarketing, you may have seen her name pop across on your LinkedIn profile.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:She may have even said a spicy take about this podcast, but we're not going totake that away from you guys. We're going to let her dive into that in the nextfew minutes. But before we do that, Yi Lin, anything we're missing here fromthis incredible intro that we are, we're rolling out the red carpet for youhere.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Oh, [00:01:00] wow. That's definitely anincredible intro. Thank you so much for for doing that. I'm really honored tobe here and talking with all of you. I will say, you know, I'll cover a bitmore later. There, there's so many things I can talk about my backgrounds. Andone thing that's a fun fact is I also used to be a visual artist.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:I used to be a starving artist. I left my first job in product marketing,decided I was burned out and then just did that full-time painting. For aboutnine months before going back into becoming a product marketer again. So I'llshare more on that later, but uh, just wanted to throw that in.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:Okay, you're a person of many talents. If we had a paint easel, I'm not sure ifwe can do the Bob Ross, but we might have to bring it back for another episodeto reintroduce us to that craft right there.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Absolutely. I actually did a Bob Ross painting and I sold it at an auction.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:What?

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:What?

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Can we ask the question, how much did they Yi Lin "pay" you?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:a great question. So first of all, I [00:02:00]made $0 because it was donated to charity. It was an auction to charity, but Ibelieve it was sold for $500.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Yeah!

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:No actual Bob Ross. I'm not commanding like tens of thousands, but it was anice little donation for a good cause, I would say.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:I love Fun fact. Fun fact, Bob Ross never got paid for his appearances on PBS.All of his sales came from Bob Ross. All of his sales came from paintings andhis workshop. So I think you, that's another thing that you and Bob Ross havein common.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Wow. That's great

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:to know.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Yi Lin, I think after this, I'm gonna have a side conversation with you aboutmaybe a commissioned piece, because I need something for my living room andI'm, desperately trying to find the right thing. So we'll talk about

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:The shoes are not enough behind this wall here, but Yi Lin, like we said, here,we got the million dollar question that Million dollar or the $500 auctionwinner here going to pass it over to Gab [00:03:00]to kick it off.

gab_1_03-15-2024_121312:Thank you, Zach.

The Unique Role of Product Marketers: Strategists, Not Just Marketers

gab_1_03-15-2024_121312:Yi Lin,n are product marketers actually marketers? Why or why not?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Great question. I don't think productmarketers are marketers. And the reason I say this is because I believe they'rebusiness strategists. And I want to share a little bit of my personalbackground for why I'm saying this, because I came from consulting. Somy first career before becoming a product marketer, I was actually civilengineering consulting. It's like very boutique and very specialized type ofconsulting where I help basically clients on infrastructure projects. Itdoesn't matter what it is, but the nature of that means you have to think very critically about thesehighly complex and often wicked problems and figure out the through line onwhat is the recommendation. What's the key insight from that and providesolutions, right? Give them proposal to figure out how we [00:04:00] canresolve particular challenges they're facing. And I believe that skillset iswhat allowed me to be a really good product marketer, which is reallyidentifying problem, coming up with multiple scenarios of solutions. And thenhelping the client decide what is the best solution, execute on that solutionand moving forward. I think it's a highly consultative process toachieving that outcome. And all theproduct marketers I've worked with, who I believe are really great at what theydo, possess that skill set. Now you may just tell me and say well, thatsounds like, uh, you know, that could be a marketer as well, right?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Like, why can't a marketer do that? Absolutely. a, That's a very um, a fairthought to have. But what I will say is that we are very distinct from othermarketers because first of all, productmarketers don't own any channels, right? Like unlike any marketer out there,whether you're email marketer, or content marketer, you own a channel we don't,we all, [00:05:00] because of that, we also don't have clearmetrics for success, and I think that's one of the biggest confusing points forproduct marketers. What is my success, right? So because of that, theway I think about it is product marketing really sits on top of other marketersand enable them to be successful in their jobs. So it's more of an enabler for these marketers instead of beingthe marketer themselves. So that distinction. Is what made me go withthe answer I have for you, which is no. They'renot marketers because they are enablers and strategists at the core.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Yes.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:up question to that follow up question to that you and really quick is that Ididn't come from civil engineering back. I came from sales. I think the onebiggest, I think, discrepancy I saw, when I came to product marketing was thatdepending on like the project you worked on or your counterpart, the lack ofmetrics and you mentioned earlier is that like we sit on top of otherorganizations, but for [00:06:00] someone thatcomes in with more of a from a data driven background and are coming in as aproduct marketer. What are recommendations?

Mastering Product Marketing: Strategies for Success and Growth

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:What are best practices you shared with aspiring product marketers to say, Hey,when you're going to this role, here's the questions you should be asking toevaluate success? What are the metrics that people should be keeping inmind to help spur, continue their growth and ensure that stakeholders arealigned to their success as well?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Great question. Number one, focus onbusiness results, right? At the end of the day, like if you're going to be successful in yourjob, you have to deliver business results, right? It's like you, when Ithink of business results, I think of thethree growth levers of a business, number one, acquisition, right?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:How many customers you'regetting? Number two, retention. Are you keeping your customers? Are you able toupsell to them? And number three is monetization. How much are we charging?So all of your activities in product marketing has to ladder up eventually toone of these three key levers. And if youcannot easily, tie them [00:07:00] up to tie that and figure out how theyrelate to one of these three goals, probably not important stuff for you towork on, and you should say no to those things. I coach a lot of productmarketers also in their career as a leadership coach, and I will see, I willsay that when I look at what people are working on, a lot of the stuff they'redoing is not directly contributing to revenue, right? To 1 of these 3 things,so definitely maintaining that focus and prioritizing your work to make sureit's super focused on business results is important. And then the 2nd thing I will say is to balance that withstakeholders needs. Because ultimately, if you're not major, if you're such a cross functional role andyou don't have your own metric, you have to also help other people achievetheir metrics. So you needto understand what sales want, product want, and customer success want, and ofcourse, other marketers, what they want, and make sure you're adding value toall of that. Whatever projects they're working on. So the more you're [00:08:00] thinking,okay, what is the value I can bring to the product team, how can I help themcreate better products, drive better adoption for their products, right? Thebetter it's going to be. And you don't have to just do that in the silo.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:It's not like you go to them and say, what is the specific project I can nowcreate to help them? I reallybelieve in kill two birds or multiple birds with one stone. So it'sreally about whatever project you're working on, figure out how do you createan enablement plan from that and make sure the results of that is trulymaximized.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:And used by all these different teams. Asan example, if you're working on a persona project, it's not just you creatinga persona deck, maybe share with the marketing team and call it a day. Followup with different teams, go to product and say, how is this aligned with youruser personas you're using on the product side? How can we make this go evendeeper? So that is actually going to help you figure out what to build. Andsame thing with [00:09:00] the sales team. They're not, they don't careabout the nice, pretty looking picture. And one slide on the personas, what doyou really need to know about each of these personas that's going to make adifference in how you're selling, right?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:If you are in the call withthese personas, right? What's going to be helpful for you, right? What's a talktrack you need to be using? What objections do you need to overcome? So it'sreally about thinking through the entire life cycle of everything you'reproviding that's going to benefit everybody else.

gab_1_03-15-2024_121312:  I love this and it's a good argument based onwhat you said, why PMMs are not marketers and ultimately business strategists,because If I'm a marketer and I own a subset of channels and it's going well,but we're not closing revenues because of sales, technically I'm doing my job,right? My department is successful, but as a PMM, it's not working like that.

gab_1_03-15-2024_121312:You need to make sure that your scope of work belong to your organization, notto a one specific department. So we love the way you're putting that. And Ifeel like it's just giving us more [00:10:00]ammunition why PMMs are not marketers.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Lovely. That's a really good point.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Is she our first season two? No. With the answer of no, I think she is. Andthis gets me super excited on a Friday.

The Torture Chamber Game: Tough Choices for a Product Marketer

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:We have a little game that we like to play on this show where we put everyonein this little torture chamber device. It started with our good friend, AnthonyPieri, as a messaging torture chamber. We've modified it now to fit several ofour Season 2 guests.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:And I've made one especially for you that we have not tested out yet.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Oh my gosh,

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:So I'll give you the rules and then you can't agree or disagree. You're goingto have to do it no matter what. We've got you on the call now. But essentiallyimagine yourself in a phone booth. You're given one option and a second option.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:And you have to pick one of those, no matter how terrible they feel to you, nomatter how hard they hurt your heart. You have to pick one. All right. You haveYou questions?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:[00:11:00] I don't have any questions. So let'sgo for it.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:All right. So the first question, would you rather accept an PMM job withoutalignment on KPIs, or accept a PMM role without meeting anyone but the founder?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Wow tough one. I will pick the first one.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:The job without alignment on KPIs.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:about if, go to an organ, go to an organization as the only one to do marketingor go to an organization as the only one to do product management?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Oh, this is also a tough one. I would say marketing

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Here's a little bit of a coaching question for you. So a PMM comes right andhas no work, work ethic, and then you've got another PMM who comes, but refusesto talk to customers and prospects [00:12:00]in their role. Which one would you rather take on as a client? Oh,

gab_1_03-15-2024_121312:That's rough.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Oh That's this is rough. I will take on the second one.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:really? Really? So it just says, Nope, I'm not talking to anybody in the field.I'm just going with my gut feelings with sales. Tell me.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Hey, you're asking you say either or like

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:I know.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:None of these

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:That's true!

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:it's the wrong answer, I'm just thinking into it, I just think of thesesituations myself, and what I would have to

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:The way you I

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:felt like I caught a stray there you said no work ethic I was like ooh! LOL

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:work

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:three

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:hours a week, that is it. All right, next question.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:Two hour lunches.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:You know, what I've told you, the first one was the work ethic question,

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:right? Whether it was poor work ethic, the thing is for me, ultimately [00:13:00] obviously, both of them are terribleoptions, right? For, to choose from. But it's really hard to tell somebody tohave a good work ethic. It's almost generally, it's an intrinsic attribute.It's very clear when somebody is driven and they want to do things they'rewilling to change. But if somebody generally has a poor work ethic, it's veryhard for them to change. It's a habit that they've formed. And that makes themgenerally not coachable, right?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Because if you can give them the most amazing playbook, right? And give themthe best advice they want to put into practice, right? Because of their ethicor work ethic or anything like that, it just becomes very challenging. But ifyou have somebody who is I just refuse to meet with customers, right? I want tounderstand why, like, why do you want to refuse to meet with customers? As wedig more into that, generally, you'll find there is something that's stoppingthem from doing that. Maybe it's a preconceived notion that they have, right?Maybe it's not a fully understanding what product marketing really is. But youcan uncover something from that and potentially [00:14:00]change the situation. And honestly, like I have worked with people who havedone very little to no research or customer, interviews whatsoever in theircareer. And honestly, it's just because unfortunatelya lot of times when companies, especially startups, they do product marketingthey just don't understand the importance of doing research. So then they justpush people to deliver outcomes like he here. Just create all thesecollaterals, do this messaging exercise in two weeks, like from what, like fromthin air I'm just going to pull that. And then they trains people to feel likethat's the status quo that I should be doing things. So this is a lot ofexplanation for a very simple question that you've asked, but I wanted to giveyou some background on why I answered it the way I did.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:No

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:this is it's a masterclass right

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:And you know what you said? You said you were like pulling messaging out ofthin air. No, Yi Lin just ask the founder. They know.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:All right.

gab_1_03-15-2024_121312:You do everything. Yeah.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:right, so next question here. We're halfway [00:15:00]done. We'll rip through these. So never meet the founder at all or have thefounder micromanage you every day.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Oh, gosh. That's a hard one. I will say have the founder micromanage me everyday.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:It's better that a founder and I like he, if he's not meeting with me at all,it means he doesn't care, right? About this, my job at all. That's actuallyvery dangerous and challenging because then whatever I do, it doesn't reallyseem to matter, right? It wouldn't make any dent. But if a founder ismicromanaging, it means they care just too much.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:And in the wrong way but that's a situation I can fix, right? Usually whensomebody is micromanaging, it's some sort of insecurity they're going through,right? It means they don't know what's going on and they feel like they can't.Remove the control from them, right? So that means I need to build better trustwith them so that they can relax the control, right?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:So that is something it's possible to change. It's very hard to change when youdon't give me a crap about [00:16:00] you.That's the reason why I answered it that way.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Man, I love this. I thought these were hard questions and then she explains heranswer. I'm like, no, these are easy.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:No, you get, you're asking good questions.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:This one, because I'm going to tell you, I, I view you as a humble soul. So Ithink this one is going to make you more uncomfortable than the rest. That's myhypothesis. So would you rather join a company for money or for the fame andbrand exposure?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Oh gosh, this is a, I would say fame and brand exposure.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Oh, okay. Any any context you want to add there, or is that a good enoughblanket answer?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Sometimes you want to be in the spotlight, like to your point, I don't need tobe humble forever, right? Sometimes it's your time to shine. So it's funny ifsomebody wants to shine the spotlight on me. Sure, I'll do that because I don'tknow if I'll have it forever. I always feel like we all have sometimes our fiveminute in the spotlight and that's great, it's, but [00:17:00]it, I'm trying to think to have a healthy mindset.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:It's just recognize it probably won't happen forever. And so I'll take it. ButI will say money's important. And I'm in a very fortunate situation where, I'mnot like in a dire financial need or anything like that. I will say I havenever made a decision to take a job because of money. Like I actually havetaken pay cuts to take jobs because I can work with amazing people. I can getgreat learning. I can get exposure. So you need to have money. Absolutely. Butsometimes other things are more important and hey, getting the spotlight isawesome.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Yeah,

gab_1_03-15-2024_121312:Like the stepping stones to get money later on, like you need ultimately tohave just experience and be able to be uncomfortable by taking a pay card, bybeing with in a situation that is challenging versus this amount of dollars atthe end of the month, basically. So I agree with you.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Love that.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:And and I'll speak for all the boys here, you deserve this spotlight. [00:18:00] More than five minutes of fame, that's

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:Oh, a hundred percent. A

gab_1_03-15-2024_121312:a hundred

gab_1_03-15-2024_121312:percent.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:A hundred.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:you. That's very kind of you.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:There's no KPI that needs to be to be set to measure that impact.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:that's

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:a given

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:All right, so another coaching question. Would you rather coach, you can onlycoach one thing, right? So coach PMMs and long form copywriting or coach themand make the best slide decks in the world?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Oh, long form copywriting.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Aha, okay. Any context there? I agree with your answer wholeheartedly,

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:I just got so tired of making decks. I was, as I mentioned to you I was aconsultant for six years. Guess what I was doing most of my time.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Was that was that commercial or more bridges and infrastructure?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Bridges and infrastructure. So I was on the freight transportation side. So itwas a lot of logistics infrastructure and things like that. But it was allkinds of client presentations lots of data and analysis presentations andeverything. And then when I went to, to become a product [00:19:00] marketer, I will say that paid off becausemy first product marketing job, it was like 50 percent minimum, like salesenablement, cause it was very heavy enterprise sales. And I created I think inmy first six months, like 30 decks for every single persona, every vertical andeverything, which actually helped me get a promotion because sales loved it. Iwas like, okay, that's enough. Oh,

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Awesome. All right. So last question, cause I know we've got some more meatierstuff to talk about, but you can only work with one group in the business,sales, marketing, product, or CS, you get no communication with any of therest.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Customer Success.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:They are my secret. They are my secret BFFs in any job. They're just I thinkpeople it's, I hate to generalize people. But generally the people I've workedwith in the customer success and the nicest people, they really are there toserve customers. They deal with the most shit, if I can [00:20:00] say that all the problems from customers are piled ontothem. Product management doesn't really want to listen to them, even thoughthey've made the same feature request 50 times. And and I love working withthem because they're usually humble, extremely helpful, and they want somebodyto actually listen to them. And they're a first line to customers, right?What's better than that? To have that connection to actual customers. You cantap into and talk to and see the amount of value and insight they can provideyou. So absolutely CS.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:I also use them as my little secret buddies who I feel are underprivileged andundervalued

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Absolutely. The underdogs.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Yes, that's why we align so well with them. All right. So we'll take it back tothe regularly scheduled programming, but congratulations. You made it throughour torture chamber and it was a great time for me.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:So thank you.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Thank you. Those are great questions. They were indeed

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:[00:21:00] You knocked it out. You knocked itout.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:So I'm, curious.

Navigating Layoffs: Yi Lin's Perspective and Support for PMMs

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:We've got two gentlemen on this call who've been laid off in the past year.Mine came on in December. So just a few months ago what has been yourperspective on everything that's been going on around the last year in thatworld of layoffs, specifically to PMMs and how have you been able to, help outseveral of our, People in our network, and probably some people who areactually friends of ours.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:absolutely. I'm sorry to say you've been laid off. That's super unfortunate andthey don't know where they're missing by.

We're having a podcast.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:So it's all good.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Exactly. That's a great way to put it.

Navigating the Challenging Job Market: Strategies and Insights

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:And um, you know, and then coming back to this whole layoff situation, I willsay it's the worst job market I'veseen ever since I started working. Because, I started working in 2010and that was when the great recession is in full swing and we were in theeconomic, terrible situation. I remember competing for the same job with all my[00:22:00] classmates. And then it's basicallyincreased and the market has been going, growing every year since then. Andthen suddenly we're in this situation of a combination of COVID AI, changes inVC, investing strategies, and the focus of different companies that's leadingto this situation.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Which is certainly terrible. The good news is I do believe the job market isgetting better. If you look at trends from layoff data every month, right?We're seeing decreases in trend like over year for short, right? This quartercompared to last quarter is a lot better. So I do believe and I'm hopeful thatwe're in a, on the path to recovery, having said that there's still lots of folks out there without jobs, and there'sstill way more supply than demand. In general, for that situation thereare, I guess there are 2 ways that'sinfluenced my coaching work.

Differentiation in Job Applications: Standing Out in a Competitive Market

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Number one is if you are acandidate, you need to focus way more on differentiation. How do youstand out from the crowd so [00:23:00] that youcan be positioned as the best candidate for the role? Because if you're in a really great job market, youmay not need to differentiate as much, right? Just because there'splenty of fish free for you. But in this market, you have to be the top, right?Otherwise you won't get it. And so you have to think, what does a hiringmanager really want? What's going to differentiate my me from everybody else?So a lot of my coaching has nowfocused on standing out from the rest by creating a. Differentiatedcompetitive, differentiated career story, right? That's going to be thethrough line that you're going to use in your entire interview.

Career Switching Advice: Embracing Stepping Stone Roles

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:The other thing that has, that made it sort of, um, that changed and helped me shift my focus is for careerswitchers, my advice is to focus more on stepping stone roles, right?Previously, if the market is good, you have, you can have, say, somebody gofrom a sales enablement manager role, directly to product marketing, [00:24:00] right? That may or may not be possibleright now. And I would say if you havevery little marketing experience right now, and you have some gaps in experience,it's extremely challenging to directly move into a product marketing role. Asa result you're going to figure out whatare different stepping stones roles you can get to that gets you closer.To the ideal and dream job that you do want, right? So, maybe you're moving infrom sales enablement, but then the next step is not immediately productmarketing, but it's more general marketing, right? Digital marketing,partnership marketing, or something else. And then product marketing. So that'slike how it's, hopefully I answered your question.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:I know I went a bit long, so let me know if there's anything else I need toclarify or elaborate on.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:No, I love that too.

Personal Success Stories: Leveraging Unique Backgrounds for CareerAdvancement

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:And what I, what piece that resonated with me was the differentiated careerstories that when I first broke into product marketing, my interview, that gotme that first role as an APMM. So I told 'em, I said, Hey, I'm a salesperson. You're building content. You're doing work to support the sales teamwho know better [00:25:00] to hire thana salesperson. A question to ask for you, Yi Lin for that piece arounddifferentiating career story. What are common table stakes that aspiringproduct marketers can lean on to help find that differentiation? Should I leanon my hometown? Should I lean that? I'm like, Hey, I'm a Vikings fan.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:That's great. Great question. And great story about yourself. Probably not aVikings fan, right? That's probably not going to create

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:So now that wouldn't get the role within on your team.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:You have to figure out thedifferentiation and how that differentiation is going to benefit the company.It has to be relevant. I'll give you some example. One of my client wasformerly a CPG marketer like, you know, consumer packaged goods. So shehas never worked in tech, but as a CPG marketer, they do a ton of pricing andpackaging because they own the P& L.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:So that was a hugedifferentiation because only about, I would say one-fifth, 20 percent ofproduct marketers have done pricing and packaging in their jobs, right? Mostentry-level PMMs have never done that. So she used it to her advantage andsaid, [00:26:00] she's a product marketer with significant experiencein pricing and packaging. She applied to a tech company for a product marketingmanager role in monetization. And then she beat out so many differentcandidates and they told her you actually beat out two internal candidates forthe job because of your background and your ability to create pricing andpackaging.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:So unique skill set that youbring from your past life is super helpful. So for instance, let's say you werea consultant, the management consultant, you were a business analyst oranything like that. Your quantitative skills is going to be super helpful forsome companies, right? Where A lot of product marketers may come from liberalarts background as an instance. That, that's one thing and definitely domainexpertise. So let's say in your former life, you were a teacher, right? Andthen if you're applying for ed tech company, that's selling to teachers. That'shugely important because how many people would have the insight that you have?As a teacher using their software, like a non-teacher would [00:27:00] absolutelynot have that. I think a lot of my clients are ex teachers, ex doctors, ex,educator, like all of those things that really positions well in this moreniche industries where their previous background has been hugely beneficial forthem to move in. Into this new role

The Importance of Differentiation Throughout the Hiring Process

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Do you feel like it's and obviously I think both matter, but do you put moreemphasis on the introductory differentiation, right? The, I don't want to callit surface level, but getting past the, getting past that robot and actuallygetting through the 100 to 300 emails or resumes that actually get passedthrough?

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Or do you feel like the differentiation, you should focus more of your time onthe, the end result, once you're actually into that second or third roundinterview and it's up between you and a few select candidates instead of a poolof a hundred?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:All the way through you need to differentiate from the beginning, because ifyou don't, if you're not differentiatingfrom beginning, they won't even notice you [00:28:00]like, why would they talk toyou? To begin with now it's all about catching the attention of thehiring manager when you have 500 resumes in the queue. Even if you're the bestcandidate, like you have the most amazing resume, they may not even notice you.So what's going to help you stand out immediately. It's literally putting likeon top of your resume right there. Like I have been a former teacher, Iknow everything about teaching and what teachers want to buy. And I haveall this experience in marketing that will help me do X, Y, Z. Right. Like donot bury the lede, like lead with it, like in all your materials, just likewhen you're marketing a product, right? Like you, you want to see that everytouchpoint you have with the customer, they know your differentiation rightthere.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:And then, then it's just so much easier as you go through the process. Also,your differentiation is stronger when you keep emphasizing it. So in everyround and every part, you keep emphasizing your differentiation so that by theend of the process, it's no brainer. You're the best candidate and you're themost memorable candidate [00:29:00] as well.

gab_1_03-15-2024_121312:Speaking about differentiation, like to me, it's a lot about your POV, yourwhy, and all of that. I think a month ago you shared something like your firstsix years of your careers compared to the last six years. I'm curious to hearyou about was there a moment when you decided, what was like the trigger thatyou realized I need to help PMMs or not ultimately not PMMs break into productmarketing?

gab_1_03-15-2024_121312:What was like decisive moment that you realize I'm good at this. I want to dothis. I want to help people go further in this basically.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Yeah. Thanks for doing the research on me. So definitely I had a pretty, forany of you who don't know my story. As I mentioned, right after six years doingconsulting, I just realized that was not my calling in life. I need to dosomething different. And then Imade a pivot into marketing. And that was one of the hardest things I've everdone in my entire life. So personally, I just felt like there needs tobe way more resources to help [00:30:00] peoplewho are going through these things, because I just had a such terrible time.And even at the time I was. in an MBA program. So I had more access toresources and probably average person, but even then it was incrediblydifficult for me to get the help that I need to make that move. So I knew therewas a seed buried in my head. It's at some point I want to do this. But reallythe moment that when this whole happened was during COVID at the beginning ofCOVID, my team, actually one of myprevious companies the marketing team and the commercial team, 70 percent ofpeople were laid off in the beginning of COVID.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:It was like March, 2020 or April, 2020. And I just feel really bad and decidedto share a post on LinkedIn. To just help people out. You sit, I'm like, Oh,I can offer some help, review resumes, just chat with you. Because I have, someexperience doing this. I was overwhelmed by people's responses and Istarted helping people and surprisingly they got jobs and they were verythankful for my help. And one of them, one of my friends actually, who Ihelped, she was [00:31:00] like, Oh my God,you should do this. Have you considered being a professional coach?So I was like, okay, that's maybe I haven't, but then I just decided to do iton the side here and there. Since then, so it just evolved like by itself. AndI think what I've learned from this entire experience is everything startssmall, right? Like even the most biggest thing you could ever do is notaccomplished in one day. This is something I've been doing for the past three,four years, honestly. And it started from one LinkedIn post helping one person,and now to like growing to where I am today. So I think it's a game of patience. It's just making smallsteps and believing in yourself and trust the process.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:Yi Lin, I'm gonna ask a clarifying question. Actually, I'm gonna, I'm gonnaactually, I would love for Eric to kind of tap into it because, uh, behind thescenes, we find before every episode, we discuss amongst ourselves hey, whattopics we want to talk about? And Eric brought one up and I was like, No, Idon't want to talk [00:32:00] aboutthat. And uh, Eric, I think Eric knows what I'm talking about.

Advocacy and Representation: Addressing Underrepresentation in Tech

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:And it's around, you know, under-representation in tech. Eric, would you liketo, would you like to tackle it? Because I think it's very relevant to thepoint you're mentioning here, Yi Lin.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Yeah. Yeah. So to put it pretty bluntly, I am your traditional white Americanmale. Like I am very privileged. I get a lot of things that I don't know that Iget that. Quite frankly, others don't. And I've seen some posts from you, whichparticularly have struck me as you have not been given the proper respect incertain situations that I believe you deserve.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:And part of the reasons we have you on the show is because we do have this highlevel of respect and we think, honestly, you're just the shit, right? So Iwanted to know if you were, you know, you can unpack some of those things. Justexplain obviously what that's like and help me personally understand some ofthe things I don't probably ever even have to deal with when I'm doing my dayto [00:33:00] day.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for asking that question. And also just forwhatever you just, what you just said. I think it means a lot that you said itand just giving me this platform to also share my voice. So, you know, thereare so many things I can say, right? This is, I probably take hours to discussa lot of the stuff, but I will give you like one anecdote that probably cansummarize the situation. Which is I remember when, even in my days when I wasin consulting right, I was workingAtlanta, Georgia not a place where people look like me by any means. AndI was in a meeting with consulting because sometimes everybody's dressed insuits and everything. And we're having a big round table, like the classicscene big shots, you know, and I was this like little nobody sitting in thecorner and everything. And I justfelt like completely out of place because nobody looked at me. Nobody talkedabout anything that I could relate to. And they were all talking aboutbaseball [00:34:00] and like what they weredoing on the weekend shooting baseball and things like that. And at that momentI was like, okay well, um, that really sucks. And it was one moment, one senior associate in my company, hewas like, Oh, wait a minute, Yi Lin, what did you do this weekend? So he cut the entire conversation andshifted attention onto me. I was not prepared for that. And I just said, Oh Idid it, whatever. Cooked, I went shopping and things like that. And then madesome jokes, everybody laughed and then we had a great meeting. So I think number one is. It's very easy tomake someone feel isolated, right? If we're not careful, because we have, ifyou don't come from that background or anything you will be easily feel likeleft out and isolated from situations.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:And for a longest time in my career, I felt that way on the positive side,though, there are people who can be youradvocate. Right and help change the [00:35:00]situation and in that instance, ithappened because that person, the senior associate, who was a white male, bythe way, decided to become an advocate and he realized it was an awkwardsituation.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:He was like, Wait a minute. We're not we need to involve her in theconversation. And that changed the situation. Overtime, that seniorassociate actually gave me more opportunities, right? I spoke up and heactually put me on good projects actually helped me relocate to a better teamin the company and helped me get promoted. So what I'm trying to say here isessentially number one um, if youcome from certain backgrounds, you will have, you will be unfairly treated indifferent situations. And I have been, but you can also be an advocate. Tochange the status quo, right from wherever you're standing. So my goal with my coaching a lot of times isalso for individuals to stand up and also advocate for themselves and seekthese [00:36:00] sponsorships, right? So they can activelychange. That status quo, right? And what is going to be to move forward.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:I I'll follow up. Oh, go for it. Go for it.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:No. I was just gonna I'm gonna stop. That's the whole story. It as you can see,I'm getting passionate about this topic. And perhaps Zach relates in some way,but,

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:Yeah. I'm happy to dive into this and first you again, thank you again forbeing vulnerable enough to be a voice in this conversation. Because one part ofthis is that when you identify from an underrepresented like group, either ifit's due to race, if it's due to religion and it's due to national origin. It'snot a very easy conversation to talk about by itself, and it's a harder to havea conversation to have it in the workplace because like, not a lot of schools,not a lot of places kind of give you that language and the skills equipped totalk about it, too, as well.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:So I think that's what makes it very hard. And from my experience [00:37:00] in Yi Lin, I love what you're saying hereis that, Hey, how can we, as our like, individuals from this groupadvocate for ourselves and like create that space for ourselves to doso? There's another side to where I found, where it's just like, it's nofault of anyone themselves, but sometimes the space may be a bit hostile. Itmay be hostile because of the lack of understanding around, like what you do asa product marketer. And it may be like a bit more hostile because they're like,Hey, like this person has a strong point of view. But like, I'm gonnacall it, I'm gonna call a spade, a spade if a white male has a strong point ofview, they're gonna be known as assertive. If a Black man has a strongpoint of view, they're going to be perceived as aggressive. So I knowthat about myself. So I know sometimes if I come into a space and you don'tknow me, I'm going to soften my tone a little bit. I'm going to kind of back itup. But if I know you and me and Eric, so I told this point [00:38:00] that Eric earlier, I was just like, no,we're not going to talk about this conversation because it wasn't because Ididn't want us to talk about it. It's that I think it's just a very hardconversation to have without the appropriate context, the appropriate languageand kind of the context to have it so. so one, just one clarifying question foryou, Yi Lin, and this is kind of come back to like, what you've said hereearlier from your pivot from civil engineering to growing within the ranks ofproduct marketing, you've had the privilege now to lead up to have led productmarketing teams.

Leadership and Advocacy: Supporting Underrepresented Groups in theWorkplace

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:For individuals who lead product marketing teams and they're asking themselvestoday and say, Hey, I know my team here, or I have, I have a fewindividuals that they don't look like me. They share different, they havedifferent experiences from what I've got. What do you say to those productmarketing and leaders [00:39:00] that want to be advocates for individualsof those upper rightunder-represented groups that want to help alleviate?

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:Because I think that's one challenge right there is that I, that my intentionis there. But I'm not sure if my action is going to align to it. Like whatactions can a person take as a product marketing leader to be that advocate?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Number one is to listen. It'sthe most important. You have to listen to your people, right? Like, uh, Talk tothem. If you feel like they're not having the best time working with you or foryou, right? Like you have to have those conversations and sometimes it can bethe hard things to listen to and to hear. It's not just about Oh tell me, giveme some feedback or suggestions. It's like literally ask them. How are youdoing? Not just like project basis, but like, when, there's crimes, you know,Asian hate going on. It's not just like a lip service of Oh, gosh, I'm sosorry.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Take some time off or [00:40:00] whatever.But it's like, How can I help? How are you doing? How are you feeling?And then really hearing them out. And to do that, you need to create a safespace. Like all the stuff you've done before as a leader of listening to them,providing them with feedback, doing what you're saying, giving them aspotlight, right? And how advocating for them will help you build that trust.So that when those things happen, when the conversation gets really difficult,they're willing to share with you what they're actually going through and howexactly you can help them. That's the best way. I believe that a leader can usetheir powers to really help somebody.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:And usually the employees, they, when they share stuff, like when they, it'svery obvious what things needs to be done. I have worked with people, many ofwhom are people from underrepresented backgrounds. And many times I hear thestories of just I, you know, I feel like I'm being cut off in my meetings.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:I feel like everybody else istalking over me. I have this idea, but I'm not speaking up at [00:41:00] all.And I just feel like not doing a great job and my job is at risk. In that case,if you're a manager, if you're a manager of this person, you would notice thatsituation and ask, How did that meeting go? How can I make it gobetter for you next time? Maybe then after discussing going into thenext meeting, this leader can then say, Hey, you know, Sarah, would you mindsharing your perspective? I know you did some work on that. I'd love to hearthat in the meeting. Then youbecome their advocate, not just sit in the background and say, Oh, you canspeak up more in meetings, right?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:That's not helpful anymore. So it's, I think, building trust, listening to them, acting uh, upon whateverthey're telling you to do. And make the change from there onwards.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:And, what I'm hearing again, if you don't know white male here, centralPennsylvania, I call it "Pennsyl-tucky" for a reason. Right. [00:42:00] What I'm hearing out of this is two veryimportant things, right? Your story, I think was great, Yi Lin, if you seesomeone in that situation where they've they almost feel like they're isolatedand they're maybe shy, how do we involve them in that conversation?

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:That is the simplest thing you can do. And then when you bring it from a,product marketing perspective, cross-functional, right. Asking people to getinvolved in these meetings and asking for their perspective. With the hunchthat maybe they are feeling a little bit uncomfortable or shy and sharing that,I think are the two big things that I picked up over the last 10 or 15 minuteson this.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Absolutely. And, obviously there's so much more we can discuss and it's notjust about meetings, even though it's a big part of product.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:Literally half of

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:your job. Oh,

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:multiple job

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:isn't but I absolutely, I think that's the right idea is, it's just be moreobservant, right? And pay attention to some of those things. We just tend tojust, you know, [00:43:00] Like let it passbecause it's just so it's like a norm. It's Oh yeah, this is what happensalways. It, but they shouldn't be perhaps.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Like that's take a stop and pause and then think how you can be acatalyst to change in this process as well.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:That, that was, honestly, I just want to say thank you, because Zach said itthe best. This is a hard conversation to have on any level, and I feel likeI've leveled up quite a bit over the last, 15 minutes or so.

gab_1_03-15-2024_121312:Same. I feel it's it's good to have that transparency because you don't knowwhat you don't know and it's hard to put yourself in the place of someone else,but the way you're putting it again, I think level up is a really good term toexplain how we feel about that. White Canadian here, not American, but whitemale Canadian.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:yeah.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:we don't isolate Gab out of the conversation because he's a French Canadian.We're just gonna make, we're Thank you.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:You're marginalized too, right? Like we heard earlier, don't [00:44:00] think you're

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:rich.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:I do have a question.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:you go for it.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:I do have a question.

Yi Lin's PMM Superpower and Final Thoughts

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:What's your PMM superpower, Yi Lin?

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Oh, that's a really good question. I think mybiggest superpower is being able to figure out what things we're not doing thatwe should be doing and do that and achieve results. That nobody reallyhave thought of before. So I really believe in, I also really believe in taking big bets, right? Because ifyou go big, you can win big. If you just take small steps, if you're just like making a small betthat's all you're going to get. So probably that's the reason Igenerally do really well in startup land. Cause they do reward. taking biggerrisks. And I felt like one of thereasons my career was able to be fast tracked was because I was able to takesome bigger business risk that paid off in the end. So [00:45:00] ultimately,I think, those two things are related, right? First noticing what is the gapthat needs to be closed, and then take that risk to do that when nobody elsedares to or want to do that and then achieve results and moving forward fromthere.

gab_1_03-15-2024_121312:Love it. Love the mindset here.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:That's awesome.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:And yeah,

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:That, that's all I had. So Yi Lin, you spent some time with us now and we'vehad, I think one of the best ways to spend a Friday afternoon hanging out withyou. We wanted to see, is there any other special things you've got coming upyou want people to know about or any ways that people can find you and we candirect them to learn more about what you've got going on.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Absolutely. And thank you for asking about that. So I think the best way is tofollow me on LinkedIn. I post their weekly different types of content. I alsohave a newsletter. I would love for you to sign up to get more in depth intodifferent topics I talk about. So [00:46:00]it's courageous-careers.com, and you'll find the links to my newsletter.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:And of course, if you do need any help along your journey, whether it's to lookfor a job or level up in your career, check out the services I offer on mywebsite and see how it can potentially benefit you. But I also think one takeaway, and I hope an action for everyone to take was listening is just lookaround you.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:If you're currently working is. Whose voice are you not hearing from?That you wish you heard more from right among your teams, your teammates, orpeople in your company, and maybe just reach out to them, have a chat and seehow you can potentially help. And if everybodydid that, I think we're going to have a much better workplace.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:And I just want to say as a parting word, I literally am doing exactly what youjust said. I'm sending a Slack message once we're done with this to a veryselect group of people saying, I want your input on a few things.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:Love that

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Yeah, absolutely. [00:47:00] Awesome call. Allright. Then that's.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:to listen to that. They're going to listen to this conversation and be like,Eric, that's why you sent us that Slack.

eric-holland_1_03-15-2024_121313:Eric, where's that slack I was waiting on, right? But seriously I've had such agood time and I think that that wraps it up for another episode of We're NotMarketers. Thank you, Yi Lin.

zach---he-him-_1_03-15-2024_091313:Thank you, very much.

yi-lin_1_03-15-2024_121313:you guys take care.

Thank you for listening to We're Not Marketers. If you likewhat you heard, please subscribe, review our podcast, and share this episodewith other PMMs. Thanks again and see you soon.

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